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Stargate RV/Psi Discussion, Yahoo Groups.
Source Location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/
Filetype: Archive. Block #3. Topic: Remote Viewing.
First Message Number: 201. Last Message Number: 300
First Message Date: July 8, 1998. Last Message Date: July 11, 1998
Block Filename: remote-viewing_stargate_000201-000300.shtml
Archive Storage: www.firedocs.com/stargate/ and http://www.dojopsi.info/stargate/
Archivist: Palyne PJ Gaenir (PJRV, Palyne, Firedocs RV, TKR and the Dojo Psi.)



BEGIN ARCHIVE BLOCK #3.

stargate : Message: [stargate] 
MAGNETIC FIELDS
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/201)
12:23:50
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Hello, This is my first posting to this list so here goes: I suffer from tinnitus, so to see if there is any problem with my ears my consultant booked me in for an MRI scan. When I got near to the appointment (last Tues afternoon), I thought 'Here's an experiment just asking for it!'. So I decided that I'd try rv'ing when the scan was actually taking place (I'm always on the lookout for experiments). As well as participating in target viewing on a number of web-sites, I'm in email contact with a guy in Israel, and we send each other targets (.jpg file nos.) followed up by session summaries and then the actual .jpg file and comments; about 3 times a week. So, when the scanner was up and running (very noisy too), I concentrated on the latest target number and tried to rv it. BTW I don't follow any particular protocol, I just close my eyes, try to relax, think about the code no., and try to keep my conscious mind from 'interfering'. I then wait for impressions, which may come by way of visuals (liberally sprinkled with AOLs of course :-/), tactiles, emotions/feelings etc...as you all know. I know I have a lot to learn, and could do with structuring my sessions somewhat......but we have had some success, enough to convince me that rv really happens. Well, I was fed to the 'doughnut', and told to keep perfectly still and try to relax. (Obviously total relaxation is a bit of a 'no-no' in such a situation; especially when there's always the thought that the scan could reveal something drastically wrong....) I must admit it felt very different, although that could have been because I was expecting it to. It felt as if my mind was much more 'open', hard to describe really. No, I didn't get a direct hit :-(, and perhaps not even qualified for a 'near-miss' on the UT site, but I got a great deal of basic information which appeared in the .jpg picture. The sheer *amount* of information coming in impressed me......my problem was interpreting it. The only other time I've had such an over-abundance of data was when I tried a 'beaconing' target on the UT site. Thought I would share this, because what I really want to know is whether anyone has done any research, or read anything anywhere about the affect that magnetic fields may have on performance re rv... or psi in general. BTW my friend said that he was impressed, (which made me feel good :-) ), and he wants to know how I did it; as all I said was that I tried an experiment. I've now got to tell him that it's unrepeatable...hopefully. Thanks for reading this. -- Regards, Glyn stargate : Message: [stargate]
Sony psi research closed down
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/202)
12:24:06
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Everyone, I thought you might find this interesting. Posted to PJ's Psi List, which after much email pressure, is still alive! I believe the Viewer List has closed down, however. -- South China Morning Post Internet Edition Tuesday July 7, 1998 Japan Sony sees sense to discontinue ESP research BENJAMIN FULFORD in Tokyo Japan's Sony Corporation says it has proved extra-sensory perception exists - but has closed down its ESP research facility because there did not seem to be any way to turn the knowledge into marketable products. Sony had a team of five researchers, who spent seven years inviting people who claimed to have psychic powers into their laboratories for a series of scientific tests to see if they really did have these powers, company spokesman Masanobu Sakaguchi said. "We found out experimentally that yes, ESP exists, but that any practical application of this knowledge is not likely in the foreseeable future," he said. Mr Sakaguchi said a typical experiment involved having a qi gong practitioner put qi, or spiritual energy, into a glass of water and then having another practitioner detect which glass contained the qi. "They were right 70 per cent of the time, and if it was random guessing they would have been right only 50 per cent of the time," he said. The experiments were repeated so often that any chances of a statistical fluke were ruled out, he said. Other experiments produced similar results for things like discerning hidden objects and detecting colours without looking, he said. "We were unable to detect qi with any machine; it seems only people can detect it," he said. Possibilities like packing qi gong energy in batteries were thus too remote to justify more research, he said. Masaru Ibuga, one of Sony's founders, set up the ESP research centre in 1991 after he became interested in qi gong and other unexplained aspects of Chinese medicine. His death this year may be the real reason the research was discontinued. --end-- stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
MAGNETIC FIELDS
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/203)
12:24:20
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
...my consultant booked me in for an MRI scan. When I got near to the >appointment (last Tues afternoon), I thought 'Here's an experiment just >asking for it!'. So I decided that I'd try rv'ing when the scan was >actually taking place (I'm always on the lookout for experiments)... Hi Glynn, Quite creative and resourceful of you to think of incorporating rv'ing during an MRI scan. I don't really know much about the studies regarding the effect of magnetic fields on psi (I'm sure someone else on the list will address this), but I wonder whether having to concentrate intently on something else than the MRI and implications, where you forced yourself to block out distractions helped you to access the target. Regards, Roger stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Sony psi research closed down
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/204)
12:24:35
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Hi Steve, It seems incredible to me that the conclusion was that no practicale applications were possible. Is this another cover up denouncing psi so that the practical applications go underground. Surely, as the many RV groups have found, psi even at a low level can aid in finding Oil, people, etc. A very bizzare conclusion! Puzzeled in Seattle, Bill Pendergrass stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
MAGNETIC FIELDS
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/205)
12:24:45
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Hello Glyn, I don't know whether I should mention this but a very good friend of mine, who has since left the country claimed to have been part of a government black project to enhance psi with alternating EMF fields. She claims her nervous system was severely damaged when the black ops closed it down and left her abandoned. Was this true? I don't really know. I kind of doubt it, but her symptoms were those of someone suffering from damage from extremely high EMF fields. She said it did work BTW. I know nothing more about her claimed experiment. Any black op people out there, stay away or I'll oscillate your fields! Dr Barry Taff who has a tape on both Art Bell and Jeff Renses (sightings on the radio show realaudio archives) claims that he also participated in a similar effort which was abandoned because of secondary damage. However, he mentioned no serious injuries. Still it makes one really wonder. Barry also said it worked but was too dangerous. I think Dr TAff is pretty reliable, although he may be leaving things out. I don't thing he made things up for the show. There is also evidence I've seen on Discovery Channel that stimulating the temporal lobes of the brain with an oscilating field of certain frequencies causes psi like effects. OOBE's, voices etc. although these investigators did not try to determine if these manifestations were truly psychic or simply hallucinations in fact claimed the opposite without any experiments. Sincerely, Bill stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/206)
12:25:02
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>Aries Productions has just completed a new 25 card Color-sensing Deck which >is available from Aries, Inc. Dept. L, POB 29396, St. Louis, Mo. 63126 USA at >$6.50 plus $1.75 postage US, $3 foreign. for these very interesting >experiments. Hi Bevy, Thanks for this. Do you happen a have phone number for them handy? More info on what the deck is like would be nice too (are they just coloured cards? I'd think for a psi experiment, the fewer distractions on the card, the better, unless they are somehow supportive to a good psi result?) The name of the game here, so to speak, is to create what is supposed to be the most favourable conditions for psi, and then perform a simple test to measure chance vs. actual scores. Aside from 'proving psi' for skeptics, it would hopefully have the added bonus of allowing us to flesh out the weaknesses and strengths of psi through ongoing online experiments, in a way we can all be involved with. So in that way, these kinds of experiments, apart from hopefully being just "fun" and also easy to try, should be useful in, for skeptics, showing us whether psi can really be demonstrated to exist this way, and for the supporters or to-be-converted skeptics, it can allow us to probe the boundaries of psi through ongoing online experiments. Either way, whichever side of the fence people are on, I'd hope these kind of experiments would provide some useful information. >Working with children is rewarding as they tend to DO what you tell them they >can do. It is best to explain that it is merely a game, however, for obvious >reaons. > >Many who are working on developing the PSI abilities from telepathy and >psychic touch to remote viewing can work with a child quite easily. Keeping >it on a 'game' footing helps to allow them to regard the 'games' as normal. >Having done this many years ago, I can verify that it works very well done in >this way. That makes sense. I suppose children do not consider it yet to be an "unnatural" or impossible task at that age, plus they're not as concerned about statistics at that age as your average adult playing a similar game ;-) I'm sure this must help in developing psi skills. They just see it as a game, like you say, and they're too young to realise that something is going on that most adults in today's world would probably regard as "strange" or "spooky" if they were a witness or participant in it. Children on the other hand, probably don't see the 'big deal' over it. Bringing children up to regard this as a natural talent/ability can only be a Good Thing(tm) IMO. Best regards, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/207)
12:25:13
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>I think some experiment involving red/black might work on the Stargate List, >but I think the one you have had in mind is probably a bit advanced for most. >Why not just start with 5 of them, and go from there? Hi Bevy, The idea of a red/black card test is still "in the works", so it's probably a good idea to regard all my ideas as "preliminary ideas." There are many questions I need answering before I can even begin this type of experiment, though, such as how many cards to do at a time, how often they should be changed, and any special procedure I have to do (memorise the order? Etc.) Since I've never done an online experiment like this before, I'd like to hear from anyone who has done this type of experiment in the past, especially if they've done a "remote" experiment like this before. How many cards per day or per week do you think would be a "not too high, not too low" number? It would be nice to collect as many stats as possible, but without giving people too much work to do, or - on the flipside - making it easy, such as one card per week, but then making realistic stat work impossible for at least six months or so. Apart from giving people a chance to brush up on their skills and to perhaps test different approaches, it's also a valuable chance to gather some statistics (and to test claims, such as that everyone has natural psi abilities, that some are better then others, etc.) An online experiment where everyone is given a unique number (and they can choose to tell people who they are only if they want to), allows us to see the differences between individuals, without anyone knowing who those individuals were (i.e. people would still be 'anonymous' in the sense they're only recognised by a number, unless they *want* to be identified.) Comments, suggestions, tips, ideas etc. are welcome on this idea! Best always, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/208)
12:25:31
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
<< Comments, suggestions, tips, ideas etc. are welcome on this idea! Best always, Steve. >> Not gonna beat this horse .... rigamortize has already set in...but here are some "facts" you need to file away... 1. The good Psychic / Remote Viewer may start off with a good "score" but very quickly they will tire of this parlor trick and the scores will begin to look very wierd.... 2. Lets say that a viewer consistently hits 50/50..what does that mean....hmmmm....any comments.....Does it mean anything?..Well actually it does..it usually means the viewer/Psychic is playing with the mind of the tester... 3. Let;s say that a viewer gets a consistent 75% correct hits...then all of sudden they begin to get only 25% correct hits...What does that mean..?..Have they burned out?...Have they lost it?...hmmmmm???...Actually getting 75% correct hits is the same as getting 25% correct hits...ask any mathematician... 4. How do you plan on eliminating tester bias...I like red better than black...will my body temp, eyes, voice, brathing etc.etc change when I see a red card and will I "transmit" these to the Viewer/Psychic... 5. .......and besides card tricks are just that...card tricks...they prove nothing...if you want to test things on the net...do like Paul does...come up with some nifty targets and let people view them...then check the number of "rookie successes" with the number of "pros successes"...check the accuracy of hits...check similarity of responses...do people use the same words to describe same items...do they use these words every time this type of object is observed....see there are lots of ways to learn things about RV without resorting parlor games... Gene... stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
MAGNETIC FIELDS
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/209)
12:25:42
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Glyn: Dr. Andrija Puharich did a great deal of work on PSI fields operating while in or out of magnetic fields. He used a Farraday (sp) cage for some of the experimental trials and found that magnetic fields did not seem to be a factor either for or against the operation and efficiency of PSI. (Dr. P. also found correlation between some phases of the lunar orb to create a small effect) (no comment) I think the scientific thinking on PSI and what does or does not affect is has definitely shifted away from any operation of EMF fields, of any sort. However, as I have always felt that the questions we cannot answer are to be contained in the field of physics and specifically quantum physics, it is interesting that even such early research tended to elminate thinking along EMF lines. Bevy J stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/210)
12:25:51
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Steve: The Aries Color-Sensing Deck is an original design of a brilliantly-colored triangular shape on a series of 25 white cards, done in red, yellow, green, blue and black. There is no 'color' on the back of the cards, which was one of the 'noise' factors with Rhine's Zener deck, which had white squiggles and a sort of starburst on blue on the reverse side (which led to a lot of people 'guessing' the wavy lines were on the opposite.) The other problem with it is that students in PSI often see only a portion of the design, and not the whole design. Since 2 of the zener cards were a square and a t-cross, both of which are composed of 4 right angles, students tended to confuse them continuously. Imho, this factor alone could conceivably do great damage to Rhine's mathematical statistics on his tests, as students saying 'cross' when the target was a square, may have been entirely correct but had to choose one of two 'possibles'. Given this problem, his percentages of 'right' choices may have been very much higher than they were. It is well known that persons studying telepathy and remote viewing do run into the 'not a clear picture' or 'not a whole scene' problem, sometimes for as long as a period of years until they get clear 'eyes' and can scan whole detailed targets. It took me a lot of time until that 'dark veil' problem, misting out some of the target, cleared up, and I am aware of students who may have found it a problem for even longer periods. Concentrated deliberate visualization and mnemonic exercises do help to clear it, too, but found that direction of attack only in the late 1960's. Hope this helps out. Bevy J stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Signal direction
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/211)
12:26:07
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Bill, I recall that he mentioned he had gotten a lot of his information from a person who had spent twenty years of research on hallucinations. I believe his name was Claude de Contrecoeur. Try http://dog.net.uk/claude/ The paper on controlled dreaming is very interesting.....Ken stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/212)
12:26:18
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
This is REALLY cool information...keep 'em coming. Thanks :-) electrix stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/213)
12:26:35
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Gene, Welcome back to the list. Some thoughts on your reply to my red/black post.. >Not gonna beat this horse .... rigamortize has already set in...but here are >some "facts" you need to file away... > >1. The good Psychic / Remote Viewer may start off with a good "score" but very >quickly they will tire of this parlor trick and the scores will begin to look >very wierd.... If people tire of this "parlor trick", they should be all means quit while they're ahead. No one's forcing them to take these experiments, least of all me. It's all a matter of choice of participation. They can start whenever they like, leave whenever they like. Incidentally, did the viewers in the mil unit "start well, then it looked weird" in the laboratory? If not, I do not see why they'd be a difference in similar people's performance in an open setting, where if anything, they should be more relaxed and cosy, because they are doing it from the comfort of their own home? What causes you to suspect that a different setting will lead to dramaticly different experiments with dramatically different conclusions, that cause laboratories' findings to be unrepeatable? Also, why would any conditions be different outside the lab than in them? Because if we follow the basic rules of science in performing these experiments, (first be open and accountable) and we replicate the experiment in every possible conceivable way, then surely there would be very little difference between the two settings and experiments? And we should be able to replicate the findings, if the original findings were sound. That's the whole point here. That's why I'm proposing these experiments. Replicability. Trying to replicate findings, to confirm them. Apart from the viewers/psi-gifted individuals doing it from home and the amateur researchers doing it from home (hopefully replicating the experiment as closely as humanly possible), what reason is there to believe that there is anything different apart from the fact it is being done openly and publicly? I cannot see a reason why they'd be a significant impact on a good viewer's performance. If they have the ability, they have the ability. If they'd demonstrated it before, it should be demonstrable again in similar circumstances. >2. Lets say that a viewer consistently hits 50/50..what does that >mean....hmmmm....any comments.....Does it mean anything?..Well actually it >does..it usually means the viewer/Psychic is playing with the mind of the >tester... There is no scientific basis for that assertion ("playing" with the mind of the tester), that I'm aware of, (please do point out any studies that show this if there are any). I prefer to stick to pure, cold scientific investigation, which includes the accountability, peer-review and repeatability I talk about above. All forms of faith, except in scientific procedure, fly out of the window for me when I talk about performing a scientific experiment. Now of course, you may be right Gene! I'm not dismissing your suggestion. But until I see scientific evidence that I can validate and repeat, I must treat it as an opinion that I cannot prove. And I want to *validate and repeat* the assertation that psi results are higher than chance, which I have heard soo frequently. Lyn said he's been able to get 58.3% if I recall correctly on the red/black experiment. I'm trying to see if I can repeat those findings. For your information, behind this experiment, I am working on the following premise: - Results are equal or bordering on chance: Psi ability has not been unambiguously demonstrated to exist in this particular experiment. This cannot prove that psi does not exist, however. - Results are higher than chance: (56%+ for example) If no errors can be found, then psi ability most likely exists, probability increasing if there is a large run in experiments and the score remains above 50%. The two "conclusions" above will of course be declared invalid and the experiment re-started if methodological flaws are later found. >3. Let;s say that a viewer gets a consistent 75% correct hits...then all of >sudden they begin to get only 25% correct hits...What does that mean..?..Have >they burned out?...Have they lost it?...hmmmmm???...Actually getting 75% >correct hits is the same as getting 25% correct hits...ask any >mathematician... That would assume the existence of "negative psi," getting consistently WORSE than chance. I cannot logically reconcile how "negative psi" could exist, but for the purposes of this post I will talka bout my feelings as if it does. Personally, I think if negative and positive psi both exist, and they have this effect of cancelling each other out, causing the average to be chance, 50%, then sticking with ways of calculating things by chance is, in the long run, just as effective. Thus, of what benefit is psi? It has little practical application if in the long run, if the long-term results generated are no better than if we'd relied on chance. Perhaps you are right and this does show that both positive and negative psi exist and had an influenec on a viewer's session, causing them to get lower-than-average after higher-than-average runs. But a tthe end of the day, their average is equal to chance. So there was *no benefit* in psi in such an experiment even if it existed. Also, lab findings seem to show that there are *higher-than-chance* results. These findings should be replicable. Please note I am speakign from only a moderate understanding of statistics. I'm not genius at statistics. I am planning to just run the experiments and allow people to draw their own conclusions. When I say I want to repeat lab experiments, that's exactly what I mean. Science is about: repeatability, peer-review, accountability. >4. How do you plan on eliminating tester bias...I like red better than >black...will my body temp, eyes, voice, brathing etc.etc change when I see a >red card and will I "transmit" these to the Viewer/Psychic... The experiments will be performed online. Therefore, there won't be any transmission of body heat, eyes, voice, etc. However, this would be an important issue if, indeed, the test was being conducted in other "non-remote" circumstances. >5. .......and besides card tricks are just that...card tricks...they prove >nothing... It seems to me you have already dismissed the value of this experiment before there is so much as a single result. And why do you use the word "trick"? "Trick" implies a gimmick. Why would it be any more a gimmick if done publicly, then if it was done privately in a lab? It only means the results, INCLUDING FULL DATA, are published openly, instead of kept filed away for internal reference and review only. I'm suggesting we perform a scientific experiment, based on repeating previous experiments, to test for a useful and practical psi ability, and if found, attempt to charter it's boundaries throuh follow-up experiments. My definition of "useful and practical psi ability" is: results that average out at above-chance levels. If they average out at chance levels, what benefit does psi provide other than something we could of guessed? If psi makes us do better than chance, then do worse than chance, with no way of knowing without feedback which is the case, and with negative/positive psi averaging out at "chance", while it may exist, it doesn't sound particularly valuable or useful above "guesswork." (Incidentally, I have never said chance results = no psi exists.) Also, why is it when science is done behind closed doors it is called parapsychology, a "highly scientific field of investigation", but when someone proposes that the same be done openly and accountably, it is immediately condemned and dismissed by so many as a "parlor trick"? Personally, from an open-science point of view, I think the latter is more useful. The former is secretive and denies the public the chance to participate fully in the experiment. This reduces accountability of the field and the ability for a third party to check/verify their results (without, as I'm proposing, repeating them.) What is the difference between a psi experiment performed in secret, and a psi experiment performed in public? It seems here we're calling the former "scientific research" and the latter a "parlor trick" which is of no use. I find the idea of support for a closed, private investigation, yet such skepticism for open, public investigations, to be disturbing. Joe McMoneagle talks about openness, peer-review, criticism and accountability in his interviews. I agree. But where is the peer-review, openness, criticism and accountability if we (a) can't look at the lab data, (b) aren't supposed to 'set up our own lab' to do something similar? There's no "peer-review", no "openness", no ability to criticise, and no accountability in that system. We have to rely on faith in the scientists in order to accept the premise that psi is "for real" in this scenerio, because the majority of lab data is unobtainable and thus unexaminable, unreviewable. I am not entering the experiment under the assumption that psi either does or does not exist. I am entering the experiment in order to attempt to replicate the experiments and findings of similar studies. That IS science, and it's done all the time. Science does not have to be done by scientists, or in a lab. Science is a methodology, a way of testing, experimenting, arriving at conclusions, etc. That's what I'm proposing. A scientific run of experiments. An attempt to replicate the findings of psi laboratories. >if you want to test things on the net...do like Paul does...come up >with some nifty targets and let people view them...then check the number of >"rookie successes" with the number of "pros successes"...check the accuracy of >hits... Given the complexities of measuring psi in this manner, I would rather stick to simpler, more clear-cut experiments. They've been done before and apparently got above-50% scores, so what's the problem in repeating the experiments? Besides, there is always the UT skeptic site for things like that. Not that many people want to acknowledge that the idea behind the UT skeptic site is a sound one, either. Even if (perhaps) they're not perfect. You can hardly blame them on such a complex psi experiment for perhaps getting things wrong. Some might say they should of tried red and black cards, instead, it'd be much easier :) Lyn has claimed on air that he has got, I believe, 58.3% accuracy in viewing red and black cards in his experiments. I am proposing we perform our own experiment, and try to replicate those findings. Is that really so unthinkable? Or because we are outside a lab, does psi suddenly cease to exist and become unrepeatable, protected by a variety of pre-prepared explanations to explain why this sort of thing can only ever be done in labs? >check similarity of responses...do people use the same words to >describe same items...do they use these words every time this type of object >is observed....see there are lots of ways to learn things about RV without >resorting parlor games... Why are you so resistent to rerunning a simple laboratory experiment that evidently many people would be interested in contributing in? What is there to lose? I honestly believe that it's way past time that this field moved into a new era of openness, where it does not condemn or dismiss any attempts to publicly test and measure psi vs. chance accuracy, where instead these kinds of tests and scrutinisations are encouraged, and where everyone can be involved from start to finish in the *entire* process, from planning, to application, to the trials themselves, through to the presentation of results, to the analysis of the data, to.. if we ever get that far.. the stage of drawing up summarises, analysis and conclusions based on the experimental trials. I simply do not understand why people can call an open public environment a "parlor trick", and the same thing done in a lab, in a closed private environment, "scientific research." Why the disparity? What separates the two? As far as I can tell, one is public, one is private. There is nothing else to stop the experiments being basicly identical in purpose and practice, if enough research is performed to make sure that's exactly what they are. Science is about repeatability. If an experiment cannot be repeated with similar or same results the second we step out of a lab, one has to ask why? And why such resistence to the idea of giving it a try? Why don't we want to attempt to repeat these experiments and the findings, conclusions etc? Is this some kind of sin? Must the conclusions be taken on pure faith in the scientists and the labs, and that their conclusions are true based on our faith or respect for those scientists, having -nothing whatsoever to do with having reviewed their data- or having attempted to repeat their experiments and got similar results? I honestly feel an open, objective, fair, rational, peer-reviewable, public, repeatable set of experiments cannot hurt, and can only advance our understanding, if anything. I am bemused that laboratory findings are used by some individuals (not talking about you here, Gene) to bolster their argument that "psi is real", then become resistent to the idea of re-running those experiments publicly. From my heart, Gene - honestly, all I want to do is to re-run those experiments publicly. I am doing my best right now to obtain as much information as possible on how to best do these experiments, before beginning. I may indeed have made a few mistakes in my post here, because of my lack of familiarity with some scientific "truths". However, I understand fully the concept of peer-review, accountability, openness, repeatability etc, and it is these concepts I am latching onto, and are the reason for my desire, my need, to re-run these experiments publicly. I want to repeat lab experiments and attempt to replicate their findings. Is that such a bad idea? I can only think it's good science, not bad science, to try to do this. If you'd like to be helpful, you are welcome to suggest ways to ensure that a proposed red/black or other "binary experiment" can be performed and operated under controlled conditions to test for psi. Any information you might have on how previous experiments were performed, under what conditions etc., would be extremely useful in the "setting up" phase of this project. Best regards, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/214)
12:28:10
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Bevy, Thank you for the information on the cards, I found it useful :) It might be worth me getting these cards eventually, but part of me definately wants to try a binary psi experiment. If I ever do do an experiment, binary or not, then I'll want to make sure I've researched it properly before anything begins. There's no point spotting a mistake mid-way through the experiment and having to restart, afterall, if you can instead know the ground rules from the very beginning of the experiment. If anyone reading has been involved with red/black card experiments in a laboratory (i.e. controlled) setting, I'd appreciate them getting in touch with me here or (perhaps better) by private e-mail. Anything anyone could tell me on the controls surrounding those experiments, statistical methods that were used, general methods used to 'receive'/'transmit' the colour etc.. basically, anything at all about how the experiment was performed, would be useful. Since LynB remembers card experiments (red/black?) being performed in the RV unit at some time, I can only hope that someone reading here from the ex-RV unit was involved in one of the card test experiments and is able to help, hopefully by providing enough information to as closely re-create the experiments as possible. If anyone reading CAN help, please get it touch. Thanks, it's appreciated! :) And thanks again, Bevy, for the information :) Best regards, Steve. stargate : Message: [stargate]
Mind Race
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/215)
12:28:18
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From Marilyn Huff (huff@...): I have found several copies of Russell Targ and Keith Harary's Book "Mind Race" in a used book store. I bought them, hoping to sell them, Not for profit, but only for my expenses, since there seemed to be such an interest. I have 4 copies that are in very good shape, first edition, hard back, complete with outer paper cover. One has a bit of pencil underlining and an inscription and another has the hard cover on upside down. They are very clean. My cost, including postage, packaging comes to about $14.00. (I just had a scare where I sent one to someone and it didn't get there, so maybe I need to insure them. It turned out that it arrived OK.) I would need to include that cost also. I will send to the U.S. only, the cost to England is $23.00, unless I can find another way to send it. The books are quite heavy. Of course, the bookstore people thought I was totally nuts for buying so many of the same book. But we RV'rs in training can't be bothered by a little thing like insanity now, can we? Please let me know if you want one. I also found several other copies, but they were more expensive. I would be willing to try to get them down in price if people want more than I have. I did it on the 4th book I bought and I can do it again. Let me know at huff@... Marilyn stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Sony psi research closed down
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/216)
12:28:29
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> It seems incredible to me that the conclusion was that no practicale >applications were possible. Is this another cover up denouncing psi so >that the practical applications go underground. > >Surely, as the many RV groups have found, psi even at a low level can >aid in finding Oil, people, etc. A very bizzare conclusion! Hi Bill, Well, you'd think they'd find applications, wouldn't you? Perhaps they're just being a pragmatic, hard-headed businessmen, and like corporations can easily be, find it very difficult to adapt to new circumstances, preferring to stick to their home terriority, where they know the grounds. Corporations tend to enter new markets by buying up companies that are established in those markets, rather than through their own resourcefulness. Companies like Microsoft come to mind. If the story is accurate, they're probably wondering what consumer products they can mass-manufacture, sell and market from it. Not exactly visionary, but for an electronics company, they might have felt psi was incompatible with the sort of things they like to make, sell, etc. Say a large psi corporation or company really took off. Perhaps Sony, if still interested, would buy out the company if they saw the market was heading that way. That's how corporations tend to "think" - acquisitions, joint ventures and mergers. But of course, you could easily be right! Sony might simply be denying any interest in the subject because it was a potential source of embarassment (remind us of anyone, folks?) Whether they're still doing anything is up for debate really. It's hard to say. Companies do often keep secrets, and are very protective of their trade secrets, so perhaps they're just trying to throw their competitors off-track, and are really taking it "underground." But some how, intellectually, the idea of a consumer-products corporation researching psi with an idea to making money out of it seems - incompatible. It's hard enough to say what psi *is*, no one really knows what it is or what lies behind it, so how do you turn that unknown force/whatever into a marketable product? I think of their statement about wanting to put chi energy into batteries. Sounds like typical conservative corporation thinking. Something tells me that building interactive and digital TVs, etc. are a high-priority for Sony right now, and the psi research was something of a bafflement for the existing management. Perhaps they just felt there wasn't enough $billion's to be made in it to keep them interested in pursueing it any further (corporations think "profit.") Best always, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/217)
12:28:47
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Hi Bill, > I'm definitely interested and would participate ( along with my more >psychic son). That's great news! :) >The simpler the test the better, than statistics can be >uesd to assess the results relative to chance. My thinking exactly. By chance we can get it right 50% of the time. Whether the lack of psi or the existence of anti-psi/negative-psi (see my reply to Curran2106), something I have intellectual problems in accepting as an explanation for a 50% accuracy score personally, the real test is to see if psi can do better than chance in a reliable way. If we start getting consistently an average of 55% or more over a long period of time, then something interesting is happening whichis more than statistical fluke. >Terms like 25% , 50%, 75% etc. don't mean much statistically. Even 1% >success could be way above chance and 95% could be only chance >depending on the way the experiment is set up and the number of >possible answers. Exactly right. Hence my problems with the varying statistics of 25%, 33%, 35%, 50%, 70%, 85%, 100% etc. offered as "the accuracy of remote- viewing." Which one's the "right one"?? IS there a "right one"? And what is "chance"? (But then, if the rules let us score sessions as low as 25% and as high as 85% depending on the system you're using, it's reasonable to assume that as the accuracy level moevs, so does the chance level as the parameters of scoring it are changed.) A red/black or "binary" experiment, in theory, gets around this problem, as we can deal with clear-cut statistics. At least, that's the hope. Chance is 50%. For psi to be useful practically, it needs to score above 50%. We can just "stay tuned" to watch the overallscores, and the scoresof the individuals. Perhaps certain individuals will be better at this then others. >Also you need almost immediate feedback to keep the players going, >and computation of odds. I was planning to provide feedback every week or so. I'm still working out the specifics, though. I could do with a lot more information then I have so far. >Also, a comparison of scores with other RVers, and psychics might be >challenging. It could be called "Beat the Psychic--challenge". Hey I'd >even donate in on the winning pot! Cool! ;-) Actually, I was thinking of something along those lines - not a "winning pot", although that sounds like it'd add excitement to the thing (incentive to viewer? Improve psi performance? I wonder.) I was thinking of giving each viewer a unique number, like in the ex-military unit, perhaps label people as V01, V02, etc :) People would be anonymous though, unless they *wanted* to be identified. This way, it also opens up some interesting possibilities. If we see "gifted" people scoring 70% accuracy regularly, we can perhaps focus our attentions on them.. there's nothing to say we have to stop with a red/black experiment, afterall :) Best always, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/218)
12:29:02
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Steve-- At 10:27 AM 7/9/98 +-100, you wrote: >Exactly right. Hence my problems with the varying statistics of >25%, 33%, 35%, 50%, 70%, 85%, 100% etc. offered as "the accuracy of remote- >viewing." Which one's the "right one"?? IS there a "right one"? And what is >"chance"? You must remember--these "percentages" thrown around about RV are not deviations from CHANCE--they are estimates of what percentage of RV sessions produce unambiguous results. Chance calculations for RV experiments are a different animal altogether--they have to do with whether a judge can pick the right target an RV session describes out of a pool of five or six other decoy targets. As such they are as much a measure of the judge's discriminative abilities as of the rmeote viewer's success. In an RV session against a target that was picked from an inifnite target pool (in other words, the target could be anything in the world), it is essentially impossible to calculate deviations from chance. The viewer shouldn't get such a target even *once*--the odds against it are incalculable. But even when a viewer succeeds several times (among perhaps several misses), there are those who simmply can't accept the fact that something "psychic" is happening! >>Also you need almost immediate feedback to keep the players going, >>and computation of odds. >I was planning to provide feedback every week or so. Nope, that's not often enough; if you're going to have a binary color-guessing experiment the feedback has to be IMMEDIATE--with every choice. Since you want to do this online you will need to automate it in some way. You could have a neutral-colored square that turns red or black periodically, determined by a random number generator (there are software versions of these--checkwith Angela Thompson Smith). You can have two buttons underneath which the subject can click on with a mouse--one button for red, the other for black. The color-square turns what ever color the RNG specifies as soon as the subject clicks on whichever button he/she chooses. The computer then keeps track of which button was clicked, together with what color turned out to be correct. You'd limit a "run" to probably ten tries, but the subject could do as many or as few funs as desired. you'd have to have a computer-maintained account for each subject so you cold keep track of the results without a HUGE amount of bookkeeping. More about your red/black experiment in other posts. Enjoy! Paul stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/219)
12:30:01
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Steve-- At 09:04 AM 7/9/98 +-100, you wrote: >If people tire of this "parlor trick", they should be all means quit while they're ahead. One of the issues Gene is talking about is a very real problem I'll here call "experiment boredom" (it has a real name, but it escapes me right now--I stayed up too late and got up too early! ;-). In effect, the subject WANTS to do the experiment, but after numerous repeats of the same old repetitive tasks, scores fall off dramatically, likely because the subsconscious has gotten bored with the lack of variety. It is analogically similar to apetite boredom, where people who have nothing but one food--say unsweetened oatmeal--to eat for years might starve to death rather than eat another bite of oatmeal! What Gene is referring to is that sometimes surprising and unintentionally creative things started happening--just as if the person's subconscious decided to play tricks to alleviate the boredom. BTW, that was one of the reasons Ingo's experiments at ASPR evolved into remote viewing. In RV, there is always variety, becuase every target is different, and challenging in different ways. There is much less opportunity for experiment boredom to develop. Before you even launch into your experiment, I suggest you read Dean Radin's book "The Conscious Universe" (available from Amazon.com or perhaps at a local library). He shows the resultant statistical and metastatistical analyses of thousands of these and related sorts of experiments, providing an airtight case in my opinion for the existence of psi. You might, BTW, also want to look into the research JB Rhine did--there are a number of books out on it, probably available at a library near you. He did literally thousands of card-guessing experiments of various kinds (many using the ziner (sp?) cards mentioned by Bevy). I don't know if any of them were binary colors or not. >For your information, behind this experiment, I am working on the following >premise: > >- Results are equal or bordering on chance: Psi ability has not been >unambiguously demonstrated to exist in this particular experiment. I'm not sure this is the case. I think there have been binary psi esperiments that demonstrated conclusive statistical effects. Again, see Radin and Rhine. >>3. Let;s say that a viewer gets a consistent 75% correct hits...then all of >>sudden they begin to get only 25% correct hits...What does that mean..?..Have >>they burned out?...Have they lost it?...hmmmmm???...Actually getting 75% >>correct hits is the same as getting 25% correct hits...ask any >>mathematician... > >That would assume the existence of "negative psi," getting consistently WORSE >than chance. I cannot logically reconcile how "negative psi" could exist, Actually, it does, and in some experiments is as robust as positive effects. It is known in the literature as "psi-missing," and happens when a subject produces results significantly *below* chance outcomes. >I think if negative and positive psi both exist, and they have this effect of cancelling >each other out, causing the average to be chance, 50%, then sticking with ways of >calculating things by chance is, in the long run, just as effective. I would suspect that statistical meta-analysis could be used to sort through such problems as Gene presents. >benefit is psi? It has little practical application if in the long run, if the long-term >results generated are no better than if we'd relied on chance. Don't get experimental results confused with practical applications. They are entirely different things. Lab experiments are designed to be quantitatively evaluate-able (couldn't think of a better word right now). But that says nothing about the QUALitative aspects which--after all--are where the practical applications are. >>5. .......and besides card tricks are just that...card tricks...they prove >>nothing... What "card tricks" can prove is an effect. They cannot demonstrate a causal linkage. But that is the case with ALL psi experiments, even RV. >Besides, there is always the UT skeptic site for things like that. Not that >many people want to acknowledge that the idea behind the UT skeptic site >is a sound one, either. Even if (perhaps) they're not perfect. You can hardly >blame them on such a complex psi experiment for perhaps getting things wrong. >Some might say they should of tried red and black cards, instead, it'd be >much easier :) Actually, they wanted to do something like that, but I talked them into something more interesting. Right now they're still trying to quantify an approach, with the current idea of making a multiple-choice form where you indicate the presence or absence of various gestalts, sensories, etc. This also has been done before, at SRI and SAIC--but as far as I know the results haven't been released. FYI, the format for the experiment at the RV unit was to use a limited number of cards from a regular deck of playing cards with the face cards removed. They would be shuffled, then the placed face down on a table. The subject would declare "red" or "black" for whichever color he/she thought would be on the top most card. The card was then turned over, and the subject's response and the actual color recorded. The subject could stop any time, and could do as many or as few "runs" at a sitting as desired. On any given run, the subject might try all ten, or stop after getting three in a row right. Statistics were kept on how many cards were guess in each run, and what the correct "guesses" were (I hate this term "card guessing," by the way; if we're presuming there is psi afoot, there has to be more than "guessing"involved!). Enjoy, Paul stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/220)
12:30:40
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At 09:43 AM 7/9/98 +0000, you wrote: >One of the issues Gene is talking about is a very real problem I'll here >call "experiment boredom" (it has a real name, but it escapes me right >now--I stayed up too late and got up too early! ;-). In effect, the >subject WANTS to do the experiment, but after numerous repeats of the same >old repetitive tasks, scores fall off dramatically, likely because the >subsconscious has gotten bored with the lack of variety. It is >analogically similar to apetite boredom, where people who have nothing but >one food--say unsweetened oatmeal--to eat for years might starve to death >rather than eat another bite of oatmeal! > >What Gene is referring to is that sometimes surprising and unintentionally >creative things started happening--just as if the person's subconscious >decided to play tricks to alleviate the boredom. BTW, that was one of the >reasons Ingo's experiments at ASPR evolved into remote viewing. In RV, >there is always variety, becuase every target is different, and challenging >in different ways. There is much less opportunity for experiment boredom >to develop. I wonder if this could be handled by making the target interesting but continuing to require only a binary choice. In experimental design, this technique is known as separation of stimulus and reponse complexity. It seems to me that the simulus could be as complex as you wanted it to be. The response could still be simple -- red vs. black, dark vs. light, tall vs. short, structure vs. land vs. water. Best regards, Michael R. Michael O'Bannon, Ph.D. 42 Lenox Pointe Atlanta, GA 30324 stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/221)
12:30:57
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Michael-- Glad to see you up on Stargate! At 11:10 PM 7/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >could still be simple -- red vs. black, dark vs. light, tall vs. short, >structure vs. land vs. water. Hhhhmmm. Interesting notion--and sounds kinda fun. It would be a little complicated to set up, but still doable, seems to me. Any alphageeks out there who might be interested in tackling the programming aspects (but make sure it's y2k compiant!;-) for poor Steve? ('Course, maybe he's competent himself to do it. He's often surprised me in the past!) Also, sorry I haven't responded about your EEG experiment query, Michael. Send me a quick outline of what you have in mind. Now, back to work. Enjoy, Paul stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/222)
12:31:12
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<< Lyn has claimed on air that he has got, I believe, 58.3% accuracy in viewing red and black cards in his experiments. I am proposing we perform our own experiment, and try to replicate those findings. Is that really so unthinkable? >> I ran some of those experiments with Lyn using the most stringent control measures and scientific protocols...If Lyn scored 58+% then he is to be congratulated...but take into account, Lyn (and the rest of us) were so "shotgunned" in our repsonses that there weas no way we could continuously score anything better than chance... stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/223)
12:31:29
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<< Why are you so resistent to rerunning a simple laboratory experiment that evidently many people would be interested in contributing in? What is there to lose? >> Steve...pull in your dagger...I am not resisting anything..I am not participating..I was just sending you the wisdom of twenty years in this business and calling to challenge the statement of 58.3% for Lyn...he is a dear friend and he knows he could not consiostently score above 50/50 like the rest of us..some days it was higher some days it was lower...its your test and if you feel it will give you some sort of imperical data on which to vbasae a clear defendable position...what the heck to to I care...I am already a proven Pshchic ...don't have to prove it to anyone ever again... gene... stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/224)
12:31:40
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>I ran some of those experiments with Lyn using the most stringent control >measures and scientific protocols...If Lyn scored 58+% then he is to be >congratulated...but take into account, Lyn (and the rest of us) were so >"shotgunned" in our repsonses that there weas no way we could continuously >score anything better than chance... Thanks for your comments, Gene. I'm pretty sure that Lyn had said he had 58.3% average, and that Joe once (only once) scored 100% on 52 cards.. I'll re-listen to that part of the Art Bell show to check and will let you know when I find. I appreciate your comments on red/black, etc. Michael's suggested we could try a similar binary experiment but with something different. My main concern is in attempting a binary experiment, and there's no reason we can't find some way to make it interesting, but still keep the experiment fairly simple. I'm game to any suggestions! I'm not hell-bent on having a red/black card test, that was just a suggestion.. I'm interested in proposals for a "binary" experiment, though.. Again, thanks for contributing. Any ideas on possible binary experiments that would be "interesting" to the viewer but are basically binary in nature? Best regards, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
MAGNETIC FIELDS
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/225)
12:31:50
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Hi Bevy! Thanks for the reply. I agree 100% that psi is not mediated by EMF. However, I think these experiemnts and stories I posted are indicative of stimulating certain areas of the brain, which may be more sensitive to psi. The brain is clearly influenced by EMF and magnetics, and it is this rather than psi signal or psi reception that is effected by EMF osccilating fields. Is the difference clear? All psi seems to be received initially at a subconcious primitive level in the brain, and accessing this primitive area may be stimulated by EMF, or altered states, or protocols such as CRV. Best Regards, Bill stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/226)
12:32:00
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>Steve...pull in your dagger...I am not resisting anything..I am not >participating..I was just sending you the wisdom of twenty years in this >business and calling to challenge the statement of 58.3% for Lyn...he is a >dear friend and he knows he could not consiostently score above 50/50 like the >rest of us..some days it was higher some days it was lower...its your test and Hi Gene, I've just been re-listening to the Art Bell Show of 25/3/97. Play from about 20 minutes in the show (Lyn starts talking about it at about red-black cards at 22 minutes but there's a small prelude IYSWIM) (time includes adverts etc), Lyn actually says his extended experiment on red and black cards puts it at at 68.3%, not 58.3% as I had remembered (well, 2 numbers out of 3 isn't bad ;). Although perhaps Lyn had only just started the experment. You'd have to ask him. (I would ask myself, but he does not seem to be replying to emails at the moment and I don't fancy calling international-direct :) RealAudio/RealPlayer users can go to the show by select 'Open Location' and typing: http://ww2.audionet.com/artbell/abell/9703/ab0325.ram - then skipping forward to about 20-22 minutes. Lyn's stats of 68.3% was what originally got me thinking about doing binary experiments with red/black cards, and lately after finding some playing cards, got me thinking about doing an experiment similar to the one where Lyn referred to 68.3% accuracy on the Art Bell show. Best regards, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/227)
12:32:16
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>I wonder if this could be handled by making the target interesting but >continuing to require only a binary choice. In experimental design, this >technique is known as separation of stimulus and reponse complexity. It seems >to me that the simulus could be as complex as you wanted it to be. The >response >could still be simple -- red vs. black, dark vs. light, tall vs. short, >structure vs. land vs. water. I agree it should be interesting. I don't know much about the processes involved, but presumably this would be on a web-site, and some sort of random-number type generator would have to be behind the scenes to ensure that the colours or whatever come up as randomly as possible (??). Say red and black are decided upon. Then perhaps, if it's not too complicated (and I know nothing about programming, so sorry if it's too outlandish a suggestion), some sort of scoring could be fed back to us...in money terms....it would be as if we were all playing roulette, and the one that accumulates the biggest 'pot' gets the 'prize' (or just the satisfaction, if no-one's buying ). Further analysis could be done behind the scenes of course. This is a light-hearted suggestion, and may not appeal to some, but I think that if there's an element of fun in the experiment then all the better. Whatever is decided, I'll definitely join in though. BTW you may/may not know of the little applet on enchantedmind.com that uses colours. -- Regards, Glyn stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/228)
12:32:48
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<< Again, thanks for contributing. Any ideas on possible binary experiments that would be "interesting" to the viewer but are basically binary in nature? Best regards, Steve. >> One final note and then I let it die...If we psychics could consistenty score better than chance on binaries...we should all be millionaires...many times over...by simply playing the daily/weekly lotteries or even the stock markets...on a binary Yes/No protocol...but GUESS WHAT!!!!...we tried that also...including Lyn...and we are all still working stiffs not living the lives of luxery one would expect of people who supposedly should be able to do something as simple as picking six numbers... Gene.. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/229)
12:33:07
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<< Lyn's stats of 68.3% was what originally got me thinking about doing binary experiments with red/black cards, and lately after finding some playing cards, got me thinking about doing an experiment similar to the one where Lyn referred to 68.3% accuracy on the Art Bell show. Best regards, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
MAGNETIC FIELDS
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/230)
12:33:24
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>There is also evidence I've seen on Discovery Channel that stimulating >the temporal lobes of the brain with an oscilating field of certain >frequencies causes psi like effects. OOBE's, voices etc. although these >investigators did not try to determine if these manifestations were >truly psychic or simply hallucinations in fact claimed the opposite >without any experiments. Thanks for that Bill, very interesting. I'll do some 'searching' on the web and see what I can find. As for the 'black ops'.........Who knows what goes on behind closed doors? Nothing would surprise me. It's enough to give you the 'heebie- geebies' though! Shame it always seems to be for military purposes, but I guess they get the funding, and we can always hope for 'good' spin- offs.......like getting us all interested in rv :-) -- Regards, Glyn stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
MAGNETIC FIELDS
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/231)
12:33:37
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>Dr. Andrija Puharich did a great deal of work on PSI fields operating while in >or out of magnetic fields. He used a Farraday (sp) cage for some of the >experimental trials and found that magnetic fields did not seem to be a factor >either for or against the operation and efficiency of PSI. (Dr. P. also found >correlation between some phases of the lunar orb to create a small effect) (no >comment) Hello Bevy, Dammit, I've just gone to look amongst my collection of dusty books, and guess what I've just found..'Beyond Telepathy' by Andrija Puharich. I'd completely forgotten about it until you mentioned his name. I bought it back in 1975. The experiments are there......I'll re-read it. Thanks. I've also 'found' 'Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain' by Sheila Ostrander & Lynn Schroeder, which I got in '73. There's mention re experiments with electro-magnetic fields in that too. That'll teach me. Look first, ask questions later! Many thanks, ps. I didn't do too well on your first target...:-(. Try try again.... -- Regards, Glyn stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
MAGNETIC FIELDS
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/232)
12:33:52
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>Quite creative and resourceful of you to think of incorporating rv'ing during >an MRI scan. I don't really know much about the studies regarding the effect >of magnetic fields on psi (I'm sure someone else on the list will address >this), >but I wonder whether having to concentrate intently on something else than >the >MRI and implications, where you forced yourself to block out distractions >helped >you to access the target. Hello Roger, Yes, I think that such a different *environment* may have been the key. Difficult to say without being able to repeat it, but I also agree with other posters that exposure to very strong electro-magnetic fields over time, could prove dangerous. The operator of the scanner left the room, shut the door and observed things through the window in the next room ! The security was very tight, passcodes to get in doors, warning signs everywhere, questions (same set by two different people) to make sure I had no metal plates or splinters in my body...or was wearing metal (gold was OK though...and nobody asked about fillings in my teeth so they must have been OK too). Potentially dangerous physically, let alone mentally! Perhaps I'll buy me a *little* magnet :-) -- Regards, Glyn stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/233)
12:34:01
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Dear Michael, I appreciate what you said about peer review. I am a research scientist and used to that system. But when a peer reviewed article comes out demonstrating psi...the great majority of scientists conclude unfairly that the researchers were just to stupid or self deluded to find the flaw in there analysis, or as the skeptics frequently say simply cheeted. Therefore, the peer review process breaks down totally in an area like psi or like UFO's where the peer scientists know that simply agreeing with the possibility of such concepts can and has gotten them fired. On the other hand a simple wide open for anyone to view test on the web, (actually better on a completely public site) has alot to offer if done in a manner that can't be questioned. The experiements and stats. are relatively simple, its the fool proof open design that can't be rigged that would finally impress. Regards, Bill Pendergrass Ph.D. ( Biochemistry). stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/234)
12:34:11
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Kopfjaeger wrote: > I know it seems like it should work, but it doesn't. After a steady > diet of lousy results, your subconscious will run screaming from the > project. It is my experience/sense that the subconscious is about as interested in games of chance (after the first few trials) as the conscious mind is in being stalled in traffic on the freeway. Which is why an individual's results with RVing are likely to be most successful when viewing targets that have some real purpose (real life application) behind the viewing. Although I must admit on a conscious level I love to play those games of chance. Shelia stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/235)
12:34:40
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Excuse me, forgot to say that Aries does not have means to take orders by phone....sorrry to say. Only snail. Secondly, forgot to say that they have a better symbol deck than the zener deck, same price and shipping. 'scuse. Bevy J stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
MAGNETIC FIELDS
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/236)
12:34:50
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Actually, doing a scan while in a MRI is a new 'take' on an experiment Dr. Karlis Osis wanted to do at one time. We discussed something of that nature being applied while a student was learning to RV. His interest was in 'what happened to the brain' while performing this task. I know that there have been some experiments along these lines here and there, but have no data on the use of an MRI during rv. Does anyone? Bevy J Only thing reported professionally was that there was 'excess electrical activity in the rear brain during 'psychic' work'. (Not Osis's statement) stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/237)
12:35:07
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
> I appreciate what you said about peer review. I am a research scientist >and used to that system. But when a peer reviewed article comes out >demonstrating psi...the great majority of scientists conclude unfairly >that the researchers were just to stupid or self deluded to find the >flaw in there analysis, or as the skeptics frequently say simply >cheeted. Therefore, the peer review process breaks down totally in an >area like psi or like UFO's where the peer scientists know that simply >agreeing with the possibility of such concepts can and has gotten them >fired. Bill, Actually the peer review process *works* because the article is evaluated by the review panel for the research journal. This review panel consists of other researchers working in the field, and these are the "peers" referred to by the term "peer review." It a review of the experimental design chosen, analysis methods, and the logic behind the conclusions drawn. It is not an observation of the experiment or inspection of the data. I also work within the publication system, and we both know there are weaknesses there. I am not disputing that. I merely wanted to point out that experiments published in most research journals does go through peer review this term is generally understood. The response of the wider scientific community is another issue, not an issue of peer review. >On the other hand a simple wide open for anyone to view test on >the web, (actually better on a completely public site) has alot to offer >if done in a manner that can't be questioned. The experiements and >stats. are relatively simple, its the fool proof open design that can't >be rigged that would finally impress. I am fully in favor of these kinds of tests. The more often effects can be replicated and observed, the better. Best regards, Michael R. Michael O'Bannon, Ph.D. 42 Lenox Pointe Atlanta, GA 30324 stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/238)
12:35:16
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Dave and I sometimes go down to the Casinos for fun. We usually take about $20.00 and that lasts all evening! We get $5 of nickels, some quarters, and play red and black on the roulette. One time, we thought we had found a sure fire method of winning. We would watch the roulette whell before playing and check to see if we were psi hitting or psi missing (about 10 spins of the wheel). If we were psi hitting ie getting more than 50% correct, then one of us would bet and the other would call the color - red or black. If we were psi missing - hitting less than 50% - one of us would bet against the one who was calling the numbers. The first time we played we bet $10 and came away with $50 - exactly what we needed to buy a christmas tree and some decorations. We thought we had hit on a sure fire winning method. Then we played again - and lost miserably. Since then we have played the psi hit/psi miss method a couple of times and won several times - more than we put into the game. However, we soon got bored with the game and haven't played for a long time. The Decline Effect kicked in! Kind regards Angela Thompson Smith Inner Vision stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
RV Targets
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/239)
12:35:26
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Would any of the stargate list subscribers be interested in participating in some Inner Vision pilot research? next week, I will be placing some target envelopes in my office on certain days and at certain times. Some of the target sessions will be real time i.e. the target will be generated and placed in the envelope just prior to the time the viewing is conducted. Other targets will be generated after the viewing is done ie the viewing effort will be precognitive. You will not be told which condition you are participating in until after the pilot study. If you are interested email Catalyst@... to arrange a day and date for your session. Hopefully, I will be able to email your picture target following your effort. You will not be judged on the quality of your viewing and any method/protocol will be accepted (ERV, CRV, TRV, SRV etc.) Just send me your session summary, I don't think my current computer system will handle large files and graphics. I would be interested to hear which method you choose to do the viewing. The results of the pilot project will be posted on the psi, innervision and stargate lists. Thank you Angela Thompson Smith The Inner Vision Research Institute Catalyst@... stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards reply to Steve
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/240)
12:35:36
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Steve, I I feel your points about doing an open psi experiment are all founded. I think a wide open study on the net is possibly more valid than in a closed lab. where the conditions of the experiment could have been faulty or the data juggled. Everything is above board and unreproachable. As far as statistics I'll ask around. But I think that each person should have a training period on the task and when ready to start accumulating data, ALL TRIALS AFTER THAT POINT have to be accumulated and the odds recomputed to give valid results. So if he has a hot string and his p value is 1 in 10,000 for 20 tries, then the next 20 tries, he is just chance, the two should be combined otherwise a selection bias can enter in. When a predetermined number of trials have been completed ( say 20), that final result should be considered a final for say that month. There are statistics that will show that after alot of trials ( say 200 trials, this will vary according to the way the experiment is set up) the result is not going to change on a random basis significantly in the next 200 or 2000 trials. And if the psi candidate repeats 200 more trials again in a month or so it can be considered a new experiment. When set up this way, If scores do change on subsequent complete complete experiments done in another month,then the change can be considered a true change in the skill level of the psi candidate rather than any ramdom purterbation. The contributors could post new results but not more than one whole experiment per month and track there skill level. Bill stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Sony psi research closed down
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/241)
12:36:15
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
> It seems incredible to me that the conclusion was that no >practicale applications were possible. Is this another cover up >denouncing psi so that the practical applications go underground. >Surely, as the many RV groups have found, psi even at a low level can >aid in finding Oil, people, etc. A very bizzare conclusion! I think this is a typical example of the narrowmindedness of corperate execs, more than anything.. First off, they obviously weren't familiar with RV, and even had they been, I doubt they would've managed to snag a copy of the Tech. Transfer Protocols from the farsight site before they were removed, as I have.. Hehe.. I wanna see if, at some point I can scrape together the resources to start a company based on the application of these protocols.. Anyone interested, drop me a line.. -Tao_Sk8r stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/242)
12:36:25
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Hello Gene, The point is that you could be very psychic with a score of say 58% if you did enough trials, but to make money on 58% you would have to play alot of roulette or craps. Picking six numbers correctly in the lottery would still be a huge longshot when you are only 56% correct. But $$ could be made on a roulette wheel or craps playing all night long. Ever try it? You wouldn't walk away breaking the bank , but could probably make a living and supplement your pension and some gamblers do. Ever try it that way? Regards Bill stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/243)
12:36:42
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>I agree. But where is the peer-review, openness, criticism and >accountability if we (a) can't look at the lab data, (b) aren't >supposed to 'set up our own lab' to do something similar? >There's no "peer-review", no "openness", no ability to >criticise, and no accountability in that system. We have to >rely on faith in the scientists in order to accept the premise >that psi is "for real" in this scenerio, because the majority of >lab data is unobtainable and thus unexaminable, unreviewable. Steve, I applaud your efforts to replicate the card guessing experiment. I do need to point out, though, that you have misunderstood the meaning of "peer review" as it is used in research. Peer review means that a scientist's work has been reviewed by scientific colleagues, peers in the scientific community, and judged worthy of publication. Most scientific journals use peer review to determine whether an article should be published. ( A few do not. You can tell by reading their editorial policies.) So most studies you see in print are peer reviewed. Most researchers also practice openness. It is also considered the scientist's responsibility to preserve raw data from an experiment for a period of time. Most researchers will give you access to that data if you ask within a reasonable time. I have gotten data for re-analysis several times this way, just by calling and asking. Best regards, Michael R. Michael O'Bannon, Ph.D. Corporate and Clinical Psychologist 42 Lenox Pointe Atlanta, GA 30324 stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/244)
12:36:51
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<< Ah, Gene--but many of them are electronic these days! ;-) Paul >> Ah yes but Paul...these same people who claim to be able to influence such things should have no problem making the grand leap to influencing as simple as computer programs since they are in reality only a binary code...yes/no type influence shoudlbe a piece of cake... Gene.. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
RV Targets
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/245)
12:37:14
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
I'll participate - How are you judging? Will you be mixing the target in with 3 other decoys then having a 3rd party judge, rank the images to the RV perceptions as per typical protocol? I've done lot's of precognitive research (well, actually associative remote viewing). If you are interested in my results, I'd be happy to discuss them with you. gk Angela Thompson Smith wrote: > Would any of the stargate list subscribers be interested in participating > in some Inner Vision pilot research? next week, I will be placing some stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/246)
12:37:29
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
---Curran2106@... wrote: ...but Gregg..I can assure you those who think they can > beat the stock market, find the Lost Dutchman or whip up on the craps table > are not the type of people who will listen to reason anyhow...Thanxs for the > support anyhow...how have you been...? > Gene.. I'd complain, but nobody wants to listen. I'm afraid I haven't quite had all the idealism beat out of me, yet, due to some tantalizingly near-misses. That time-slip foible of RV is a mutha!...especially when you're paying for the recovery team out-of-pocket. Greg stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/247)
12:37:51
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Yes, but I can't think of a better way to attract attention to the whole remote viewing/psi phenomenom. You give people the kind of proof where you put your money where your mouth is, and they tend to pay attention. > I can assure you those who think they can > beat the stock market, find the Lost Dutchman or whip up on the craps table > are not the type of people who will listen to reason anyhow.. http://www.remote-viewing.com/ stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
RV Targets
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/248)
12:38:02
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Thanks for the imput Greg and I would appreciate any help on this that you think I could use. The targets will not be judged at this time, this is solely a pilot phase. Later, the targets will be put through a judging procedure. I don't want the viewers to be worried about whether they will be judged at this point. Please email me privately at Catalyst@... with any suggestions, thank you. Kind regards Angela stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Sony psi research closed down
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/249)
12:38:12
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I doubt they would've managed to snag a > copy of the Tech. Transfer Protocols from the farsight site before they > were removed, as I have.. Hehe.. I wanna see if, at some point I can > scrape together the resources to start a company based on the > application of these protocols.. Anyone interested, drop me a line.. > > -Tao_Sk8r As the Operations Director of just such a recovery firm, I dare say this work is difficult enough without using ANYTHING related to Courtney Brown as a basis for operations. Do yourself an enormous favor and get some training from Lyn Buchanan or Paul Smith (both top-flite CRV instructors)... unless you are trying to gather intel on the Hale-Bopp Companion. Good Luck, Greg stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/250)
12:38:55
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In a message dated 7/9/98 8:09:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, williamrichard@... writes: << Ever try it? >> Yes...and I did not better than if I took straight gambles at the numbers...RV is not a money making proposition...though some swear they have made money in the stock market...and Lyn even claims to have made money in the lotteries...I do not believe it had anything to do with pre-cognitive abilities for a lot of reasons..I have stated them before and most people have selected hearing when I tell them why it does not work so I am no longer going to flog this horse either...check out the bankbooks of the old pros...no different than the rest of middle class America...hmmmm....doesn't that tell you something other than we were all incredibly stupid or incredibly ethical...(neither was the case...).but don't believe me...State lotteries love to try to prove it to you as do the casinos... Gene... stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/251)
12:39:05
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
<< However, we soon got bored with the game and haven't played for a long time. The Decline Effect kicked in! Kind regards Angela Thompson Smith Inner Vision >> You came away with what most 10$ bettors come away with...a few petty wins and a few petty losses...I would remnd many of you that tore my head off on the issue of Remote Influencing that if you really believe you have the Vulcan Mind Meld capability...put your quarters into the slots and "influence" the simple and inorganic metal and springs of the machine which so many of you say you can do...ought to be sure winners... Gene.. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/252)
12:40:00
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.but don't believe me...State lotteries love to try to prove it to you > as do the casinos... > Gene... Gene, you've been the lone stick-in-the-mud voice of reality, with a little help from Angela, and I gotta get your back on this one. Gene's not just being a party pooper, guys, he's tellin' ya straight. He's been there. Even Lyn will tell you CRV doesn't work on numbers. Supposedly, ARV (associative) will, but I can't get it to work for me, and I'm a damned good CRV'er. I can even work the CRV protocols from an altered state, but the numbers and red/black thing just shreds the learning curve. I know it seems like it should work, but it doesn't. After a steady diet of lousy results, your subconscious will run screaming from the project. Greg stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/253)
12:40:10
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In a message dated 7/9/98 9:54:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, heimdallassociates@... writes: << Gene, you've been the lone stick-in-the-mud voice of reality, with a little help from Angela, and I gotta get your back on this one. >> So far tonight I have read at least three or four people who are absolutely certain that the future of RV is finding oil and mineral deposits or breaking the bank at Vegas...I have never taken any money for RV and never will...personal choice but I do know that I have never seen any of the world class viewers with whom I have dealt make any money at RV except by sheer sweat of the brow...hard work..not RV..just hard work such as teaching RV or working with RV or altered state institutions like the Monroe Institutes..no free lunches out there...but Gregg..I can assure you those who think they can beat the stock market, find the Lost Dutchman or whip up on the craps table are not the type of people who will listen to reason anyhow...Thanxs for the support anyhow...how have you been...? Gene.. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Real World
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/256)
12:40:22
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Hi all; Liam here. We live in a real world. A world where things are as they are and not as we think or wish they would be. In the real world the biggest bar to RV is a giggle (or as we called it at the project, "the giggle factor.") No elected official can be seen as to supportive of psi, lest it become common knowledge, and the voters begin to giggle. Old Senator Smith is talking to angels, won't vote for him again. No CEO can invest millions of his company's dollars on what a psychic says, or he will not be CEO very long. I get the feeling, that the dedicated researchers in academia are considered a "little odd" by their peers in other branches.I do not believe that the military or the intelligence community will dive back into RV (even though it has been proven to them to be effective and resource efficient) because the public does not want to see it's tax monies being wasted on psychic nonsense. What I do find strange is when we, who know that RV works, become indigent and outraged, when businessmen, elected officials, and researchers choose to live in the real world. Yes the truth is out there, and we should look for it. We being the people in this group. But lets not expect the people who have chosen to live in the "real world" to share our views. All the scientific studies, all the intelligence coups, cannot withstand one good loud belly laugh. I did not know I had become so cynical. slainte May the force be with you Liam stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/257)
12:40:38
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>I know it seems like it should work, but it doesn't. After a steady >diet of lousy results, your subconscious will run screaming from the >project. > >Greg Hi all; Liam here. I have to go along with Greg and Gene on this one. Maybe it is because making money is not all that important. Maybe it is because RV is magic and a gift. Using it to make "easy money" seems a waste of the gift and a perversion of the magic. Even ARV has not proved to be terribly effective from the Targ silver futures to the many attempts to break the bank at Vegas or win the Literary. There seems to be one exception. Pat Price evidently made money by RVing. Unfortunately he allegedly died before he had a chance to enjoy most of it. I would like to see RV used to make the world a better place. If that is not possible, then I would like to use RV to make me a better person. I do not think winning a few million and retiring would make me a better person. Enjoying the magic and recognizing there may be a spiritual aspect to RV seems more important to me than taking early retirement, buying a big house, and making Guinness a richer man slainte May the force be with you Liam stargate : Message: [stargate]
Online Psi Experiments
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/258)
12:40:53
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>fired. On the other hand a simple wide open for anyone to view test on >the web, (actually better on a completely public site) has alot to offer >if done in a manner that can't be questioned. The experiements and >stats. are relatively simple, its the fool proof open design that can't >be rigged that would finally impress. Hi Bill, My own intentions re: the 'binary' experiment, I am hoping will fill the criteria you're talking about here. One of the big frustrations I've had with psi research is that it is very difficult to get a look at the raw data. I made some enquiries but was told that it is rare for even labs to share data with other labs. So for about a month now I've been planning a possible series of online psi experiments. I want to use the strictest, most disciplined scientific protocols and procedures in this experiment - I want to avoid an amateurish experiment and I'm very conscious of some of the comments that have been made on the list - I'd like the only difference between my own attempts at an online psi experiment (whatever experiment I eventually choose) and the same one done in a laboratory setting being - the setting, and the higher degree of openness and accountability. I'd want it to be, literally, fool-proof - including strong peer-review - namely the Star Gate list and/or the participants in the experiment. If the innerds of the experiment are in any way suspect, I would want people to shout up, but I'd hope they'd be supportive of the general aim of the experiment and everyone would "play fair." I feel there are a lot of potential benefits to performing such a series of open, online psi experiments. Re: "its the fool proof open design that can't be rigged that would finally impress.", I have to say I agree completely with this and it's part of the plan behind the experiment. I believe openness in science is paramount to it's being verifiable without the need to repeat experiments or set up your own lab (which most people would not have the resources and/or volunteers etc, online or off.) If everything is on the table, from start to finish, and the experiment is sound in every conceivable way, they'd seem to be very little for the skeptics to gripe about. An open experiment offers many possibilities that previously couldn't be explored. Apart from the chance to view everything, through from initial planning (which, if I do go ahead with, could include the discussions that have gone on in the Star Gate list already), through performing trials, analysis, summaries and conclusions.. with every single shred of data inbetween available for full public (peer) review, it also offers the public the chance to *participate* fully in the experiment, as a 'peer-reviewer', as a participating viewer/psychic, or any other role they care to take. Obviously the first stage in any such experiment would be to obtain every single possible shred of scientific data on the setting up and administrating of this type of experiment, and that's what I'm currently involved with. I'm also off to see if I can obtain a copy of the recommended 'Conscious Universe' here in the UK, otherwise I'll have to get it from the US. (Time for me to go rummaging in those trouser pockets for change.. :) Cheers, Steve. stargate : Message: [stargate]
Target the accumulator!!
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/259)
12:41:04
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Gene said >put your quarters into the slots and "influence" the >simple and inorganic metal and springs of the machine which so many of you say >you can do...ought to be sure winners... Mary quietly suggests you _could_ Target the accumulator!!! Having been fruit machine designers from the days of the Old Jennings, to the latest computerised gizmos, I can give you some insight to the slot machines. The moment you put your coin in the slot and trip the microswitch, the machine already knows the outcome of the game. The odds are run by the computer and accumulator, the % payout is set at about 72% over 10,000 put in, in the UK. The payout cannot legally go lower than that, and in club machines it has to say % on the glass. Its all down to the accumulator. Every coin that goes in is registered as coins in, and everything that is paid out is also registered. So, if a lot has gone in, and not much out, then the liklihood of winning gets much better. Simillarly, if a lot has gone out, then it has to rebalance, by reducing the win factor. This is usually done by the nudge or hold availability, through the accumulator. Then there is the skill factor, where you compete against the machine to win, based around the gamble or take scenario. HINT. The music is attached to the sequencer. Hit the stop buttons at the highest note, or the last note in the sequence. You can react faster by sound, than watching the sequence of lights. The odds at the first shot are 50-50. Then 60-40, 70-30, etc. The parameters are set up by the machine. The machine cannot go broke. If the machine hasn't paid out much, then the chance of winning is much higher, but still against you. Theoretically, the odds should be equal. In practice it isn't. Its worked it out. The trick comes in the tickle. The machine keeps chucking in little wins to keep you going, and it can and will set up holds or nudges when it has worked out you are down to your last coin, or so. Holds may be successful. Nudges are set up and predetermined as to how many, and where. It also makes this assessment on the style of play. The only way to alter things is by introducing a level of chaos to the programme and the accumulator. Playing stupidly, nudging daftly, holding obvious losing lines. Then if you're really lucky, win and walk away. If after all this, you have sat and watched it, targetted the accumulator, and it hasn't paid out for ages, and it feels right, the advice is still never put in more than the highest win you can take out. Or better still, don't play the things at all. In Friendship and Light. MaryD stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/260)
12:41:15
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>Ah yes but Paul...these same people who claim to be able to influence such >things should have no problem making the grand leap to influencing as simple >as computer programs since they are in reality only a binary code...yes/no >type influence shoudlbe a piece of cake... >Gene.. Aloha Gene, I think one would have to examine the methodology of what influences machines. Surely thought has little if any effect on a simple machine. The state of the machine under power in operation would only be affected by certain things. Electromagnetic fields would be the primary tool to cause a machine to burp so to speak, or a surge or drop in power. I do not think that it is impossible to train someone to be able to disturb the operation of a machine. Some people cannot wear a watch, I cannot wear a digital watch for long before it comes to a stop. It's a sad thing I was forced to buy an analog Rolex :). So I would say that the real problem would actually be the intelligent manipulation of a machine that is really the problem. Aloha ... Glenn stargate : Message: [stargate]
Peer Review
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/261)
12:41:25
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Hi Michael, >Actually the peer review process *works* because the article is evaluated >by the review panel for the research journal. This review panel consists >of other researchers working in the field, and these are the "peers" >referred to by the term "peer review." It a review of the experimental >design chosen, analysis methods, and the logic behind the conclusions >drawn. It is not an observation of the experiment or inspection of the data. I think you've hit upon the very point I was trying hard to make. As the kind of person who likes to dodge words, talk and testimonials, and immerse myself fully in solid data and facts, I'm much more concerned about the parameters of the experiments, the procedures, the raw data, etc, then I am about the people involved. Scientific research, to me, is not about personalities and opinions, but procedures, methods, experiments, raw data, replicability and peer-review, etc. People just happen to be there to see that these processes are in motion (I'm not aware of scientific research that was performed without at least one human involved, but I'd be extremely interested to hear if there is ;) I try very hard to separate personalities from the information, and focus solely on the information - information I have some means by which to verify for myself. Testimonies are only good, IMO, as supportive evidence. I do not use personal credibility to establish the credibility of information they give - I prefer to see solid experiments, solid data, and instructions on how I can repeat those experiments should I wish to, plus I'd like to see those curious enough encouraged to set up their very own experiments, with the same parameters etc, in order to verify/validate/replicate the findings of the originating lab, etc. You could say that when it comes to science, I'm pretty distrusting and skeptical of human beings. And that might be true But I think science works better, as an objective form of analysis, when the personal, emotional, element is removed from it. For a long time I have been hoping to be able to obtain/see full data published on these types of lab psu experiments so that the entire process, from start to finish, can be reviewed and disected, etc. Because I understand it may be impractical or extremely difficult for laboratories to implement this kind of system, I decided to propose an online psi experiment, which I hope to back with the same rigorous scientific controls/protocols etc as the original experiments in the laboratories, in order to attempt to replicate the findings of the labs. The only difference being the *entire process* is open to peer-review by *the entire public*, and the entire public is also free to contribute and participate throughout each and every stage of the experiment. The only changes I'd make to be the experiment would be anything that would need to be modified in order for the experiment to work 'online'. I feel that there are tremendous opportunities in performing such an experiment, if properly approached and applied. Right now, I'm in the process of researching the innerds of a lab psi experiment similar to the types I've been proposing. It's lucky we have a psi lab here in the UK - it might prove useful! Once I feel I have the grasp of what's needed to do the experiment, to make it identical to a lab experiment (minus the fact it's open and public, and that it's being done on the Internet and not a lab room), I'll lay down some proposals here, and hopefully, if there aren't any objections to it, we can get started.. Best regards, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/262)
12:41:37
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>I would like to see RV used to make the world a better place. If that is >not possible, then I would like to use RV to make me a better person. > >slainte >May the force be with you >Liam Hi Liam, Jerry here. I think you put it very eloquently - RV (or any other psychic ability) has a purpose far beyond money. If you can make money with it - that's great, more power to you. It's just that I feel that I'm subverting the gift when I do that. Jerry stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/263)
12:41:59
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>Hi all; Liam here. I have to go along with Greg and Gene on this one. >Maybe it is because making money is not all that important. Maybe it is >because RV is magic and a gift. Using it to make "easy money" seems a waste >of the gift and a perversion of the magic. Even ARV has not proved to be >terribly effective from the Targ silver futures to the many attempts to >break the bank at Vegas or win the Literary. There seems to be one >exception. Pat Price evidently made money by RVing. Unfortunately he >allegedly died before he had a chance to enjoy most of it. Another example is Hal Puthoff's story about raising funds for a private school by training members of the Board of Directors in ARV. Their results were used to determine investments in the commodities market. The experiment was successful in raising 50K, if I remember correctly. I heard the story from Hal last year. Best regards, Michael stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/265)
12:42:08
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>Mind Meld capability...put your quarters into the slots and "influence" the >simple and inorganic metal and springs of the machine which so many of you say >you can do...ought to be sure winners... Ah, Gene--but many of them are electronic these days! ;-) Paul stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Sony psi research closed down
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/270)
12:42:24
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Yep.. It is called PR..... electrix Bill Pendergrass wrote: > Hi Steve, > > It seems incredible to me that the conclusion was that no practicale > applications were possible. Is this another cover up denouncing psi so > that the practical applications go underground. stargate : Message: [stargate]
The 'Gift'
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/271)
12:42:32
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>Jerry here. I think you put it very eloquently - RV (or any other psychic >ability) has a purpose far beyond money. If you can make money with it - >that's great, more power to you. It's just that I feel that I'm subverting >the gift when I do that. Hi Jerry, welcome to the list! I've got to add.. if I ever develop workable psi skills (and I'm not having much luck at it yet), I'd like to use this ability to help others and try to make this world a better place in whatever small way I could. I have to join this growing choir who've been saying so far that such an ability should not be used for selfish ends.. I'd consider psi a gift too, and I wouldn't want to abuse such a precious gift by using it purely for my own self- gain.. it seems such a shallow use of such a potentially valuable tool. Best regards, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/272)
12:42:45
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>Another example is Hal Puthoff's story about raising funds for a private >school by training members of the Board of Directors in ARV. Their results >were used to determine investments in the commodities market. The >experiment was successful in raising 50K, if I remember correctly. I heard >the story from Hal last year. > >Best regards, >Michael Hi Michael; You are right. Hal also told me the story. However I would like to point out that the RVing was done for an altruistic purpose. People were not doing the RVing to make themselves rich. As I said I believe there is a spiritual side to RV. I think selfish motives and materialism tend to degrade results. But then I believe in Leprechauns, fairies, ghouls and ghosts. slainte May the force be with you Liam stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Real World
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/273)
12:43:08
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Yes...it is an oppressive and resistant world. Full of stress and inhibition...enough to dampened the PSI factor, but not enough to prevent it from popping out once in a while in our being. And certainly, not enough oppression to prevent the few and undaunted from exercising our birth-right...against the Emperor. electrix Liam wrote: > Hi all; > Liam here. We live in a real world. A world where things are as they are > and not as we think or wish they would be. In the real world the biggest stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Real World
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/274)
12:43:27
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<< I did not know I had become so cynical. >> Liam...It comes with old age...your cynicism is a forerunner to being accused of arrogance and combattiveness...you know...acting like a stupid Irishman...heck it almost got me tossed off Steve's net so now I have become a kinder and sweeter Gene...so be very careful about your cynicism...keep it in check since there are those on this system..great academics and sholars who see not "giggle" factors in anything and lead very serious and refined lifestyles which have long ago failed to see humor in the most unlikely places and see only the seriousness of all they do...I have learned to survive with them and can now use such terms as "Peer Review", quantum mechanics, replication of details, statistical analysis without so much as one guffaw...I know have my forehead permanently squinched up into a frown as I contemplate the importance of the difference between 50/50 chance and 58.3 % results and the impact this 8.3% could have on the world at large.... PS...Nice to see another Mick on the net... Gene.. stargate : Message: [stargate]
Psi and money
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/275)
12:43:42
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[stargate] Psi and money Hi, gang. Thought I'd change the subject line, since we'd strayed from "Red and black cards" quite a ways. At 03:22 PM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote: >Jerry here. I think you put it very eloquently - RV (or any other psychic >ability) has a purpose far beyond money. If you can make money with it - >that's great, more power to you. It's just that I feel that I'm subverting >the gift when I do that. For the time being, I'm agnostic about whether one can make money by directly using RV or other psi techniques for making money in games of chance. however, the whole issue of money and psi is a sticky one. There are those who think that it's okay to make money by charging money for training or services (I'm obviously squarely in that camp! ;-), there are those that think that making money with it at all is wrong, and there are others who only think that making money by using psi in gambling games is wrong. But there is a further variable that is often forgotten--the REASON one wants to make money in the first place. I suspect that if one has worthy goals for the money, one may well be successful in many pursuits involving psi and money. If one wants money for selfish reasons, it's often self-defeating. People who are selfish seem to have more of a difficult time being open enough to psi to accomplish such goals. In a sense, the New Testament may apply here--you have to "lose" yourself to "find" yourself. Ironically the end result is this: the altruists don't care about making money from psi, so don't make any. The selfish ones defeat themselves in trying to make money from psi, and so don't make any either! Kind of funny, if you ask me. Interestingly, Hal's ARV project was indeed very successful (but involved a huge amount of work)--but it was a worthwhile project--making money for a Waldorf School. Enjoy! Paul stargate : Message: [stargate]
Psi Testing
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/276)
12:43:54
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Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR), ( http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ ) has been conducting many experiments on the relationship of Psi mediated events. A bit more esoteric than card selection is Mind Song Technologies Shifter Cell(tm), ( http://www.pearinc.com/products/dev.html ), this electronic apparatus reacts to a person's random deviation above or below chance. Ostensibly, this device incorporates a random event generator that produces an viable output which is proportional to the mind's conscious attempts to "shift" the signal beyond or below chance expectations. On the interactive software side, the Shape Changer (r), ( http://www.pearinc.com/products/shch.html ) produces two overlapping graphic images which, by user's influence, biases the pixel display to uncover the user's selected graphic image. There are several web sites that offer online Psi testing: Electronic Psi Test ----- http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e8926506/epsi.htm Psi Explorer ----- http://www.psiexplorer.com/indexnm.htm Enchanted Mind -----http://enchantedmind.com/remote/remote.htm stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Real World
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/277)
12:44:08
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Gene-- At 08:34 PM 7/10/98 EDT, you wrote: >check since there are those on this system..great academics and sholars who >see not "giggle" factors in anything and lead very serious and refined >lifestyles which have long ago failed to see humor in the most unlikely places >and see only the seriousness of all they do... Well, Gene--it's about time you started to see things my way! ;-) I have learned to survive with >them and can now use such terms as "Peer Review", quantum mechanics, >replication of details, statistical analysis without so much as one guffaw... Okay, but now let's see you do it closed-book! >know have my forehead permanently squinched up into a frown as I contemplate >the importance of the difference between 50/50 chance and 58.3 % results and >the impact this 8.3% could have on the world at large.... Come, come. That frown originated years ago and has something to do with waylaying Orangemen... Enjoy, Paul stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Real World
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/278)
12:44:23
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<< Come, come. That frown originated years ago and has something to do with waylaying Orangemen... Enjoy, Paul >> Oh sure...your a fine one to look at my version of seriousness...a Doctoral Candidate...yeh yeh..lots of humor in your life lately I'll bet...hahahah Gene.... stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/279)
12:44:32
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Dear Steve and List, I thought to take the red-black idea into a roulette wheel .... literally gambling to see if I had any ability to see if I could "guess" black or red colors. I will honestly report I lost $23. However....there were patterns...and though it isn't cards.... and though I am untrained again, I sure enjoyed "holding my own" on a $70 bet for two hours while others around me lost hundreds. I learned however that my idea of black retaining 'heat' had no merit at all. Heat had nothing to do with why I was doing well or not. I did see patterns on a roulette wheel, at least on the one we watched...this time the pattern was red for the most part. So blows my idea that black wins more on a roulette wheel. Was it movement of the wheel, different momentum of spin ( two different dealers spin at different rates of speed?) and general physics of the wheel that enabled me to watch the patterns steadily for two hours without a major financial loss? I have no idea to be honest. Remember that I am reporting a loss on a $70 investment after two hours.....is TIME a factor we should account for in our RV online experiment for red/ black cards? For the sake of reporting, I would say this was a "failure" as I was unable to get ahead of the odds and win, say hundreds, based on mere black and red appearing. Compared to cards, is there a difference? I am willing to go out there again and try it of course. Feedback? Thanks, Best to all, Laura stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Psi and money
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/280)
12:44:46
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HI Paul, It would seem that the issue of making money from RV or PSI related activities brings out the same emotions that come up when people charge for healing gifts. People are really schizophrenic when it comes to money issues, they want you to use your "God given gifts" to help them for free on demand, which if you are any good would take 24/7, but have severe judgments if you charge for your time. It's funny but the landlord and utility company do not understand this arrangement. It is even funnier that these same people will spend their precious moneys on a variety of less than honorable or frivolous goods and services without hesitation. Your explanation goes right to the heart of the issue. Which is the character of the practitioner, as demonstrated by how they direct their resources. But one step further, attempts of people to hold others to standards higher than those they are willing to live up to, in an attempt to shame these others into giving free services is pure and simple manipulation. In a free market economy, if you value a service you pay for that service. If the service is honestly represented and delivered, that is the end of the story. The idea that one group should try to shame another to "share their God given talents" for free is ludicrous. The idea that we as practitioners would feel wrong for asking fair exchange of our services, demonstrates an illogical belief system. The idea that "God" would frown on the use of healing or PSI gifts, is also illogical, are not our artistic, athletic, or intellectual gifts also "God given". The use of our gifts in integrity is all "God" demands. Unlike a retail store I have modified my fees or even given free services for those in need. I have also found that in most cases people only value what they pay for, and if there is not some sort of exchange for services it is like casting your pearls. I have worked on people who experienced major relief of pain and debilitating symptoms but felt that some how, I , a stranger, owed them this for free to make up for a life where they felt taken advantage of by others... bizarre. Over the years I have come to see these emotional positions taken by people to be more a symptom of their own journey than an indication of some intellectual proof of the morality of fair exchange for the use of ones "God" given gifts. As innately spiritual beings we are all endowed with many gifts, singling out some of them as inappropriate to value, as demonstrated by the exchange of currency, is much more immoral than the implied argument. Aloha Yaana stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Warning
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/281)
12:44:56
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Hi all; Liam here. Recently there has been some discussion of RV ethics (No Steve, I am not going to open that can of worms, at this time). At Ft Meade, we informed everyone, before they began training, of the potential dangers of RV. This is a requirement of the Department of Defense (DOD) Human Use Regulation and also the US Codes. More important it is the ethical thing to do. A person has the right to know the risks associated with any undertaking. Before I except any student for training I make sure they understand the following: I can promise you that learning RV will change you. Your world view will change. Your priorities will change, and many things about you will change. These changes will begin shortly after you begin training. What I cannot promise you is that these changes will be for the better. I believe that most RVers I know have been changed for what I beleive to be the better. There are those however, whom I consider to not only be different people than they were, but to have changed for the worst. Priorities will change. The ability to go anyplace in the world or out of it takes a lot of the urgency out of getting your monthly report on telephone usage in on time. This is fine if your boss is also on RVer. If he isn't, he may not understand your lack of acknowledgement of the importance of routine paperwork. Learning RV will make you humbler or more egotistical. I cannot predict before you begin the thee training which one you will become. You will become more or less sensitive. You will become more or less intuitive. You may experience short term memory loss. Did I say that earlier? I forget if my memory loss is from RV, old age, or from pouring oceans of Guinness, Tullmore Dew, and Paddy's over my declining number of brain cells for an extended period of time. You will come to realize that the world is different than you thought it was. The rules of physics do not really apply. I believe your spiritual outlook may change. I cannot say if that is good or bad. If you have a history of mental illness RV is probably not for you. What I look for in an RV student is a sound spiritual (not the same as religious) foundation, mental stability, a sense of humor, and humility. Gene and I, being, Irish, come by our humility naturally. In fact I have achieved perfect humility. I am probably the most humble person in the world. A fact I am very proud of . Having done, what I consider to be, my ethical duty to warn everyone, I will now climb off my soap box. slainte May the force be with you. Liam stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Warning/ memory loss?
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/282)
12:45:44
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Liam, I am interested in a comment you made in your WARNING post which mentioned short term memory loss? I say this because I feel my short term memory capabilities have decreased since serious training in RV. Its almost as if something has to be compramised in order for there to be facility for Rv. Do you have any info on this you can share? All the best... Darryl We came... We saw... We wrote a session summery... stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Warning/ memory loss?
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/283)
12:46:00
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
> I am interested in a comment you made in your WARNING post which mentioned >short term memory loss? I say this because I feel my short term memory >capabilities have decreased since serious training in RV. Its almost as if >something has to be compramised in order for there to be facility for Rv. >Do you have any info on this you can share? I'd be interested in knowing too. However, it may well be that some could become so absorbed in the practice of rv that they run the risk of being able (wanting) to concentrate much on the more uninteresting (but sometimes necessary) aspects of mundane life. I've always (been told) I have a lousy memory. For example, someone could be speaking to me, I'd 'drift off' thinking about something else, or something connected, and then anxious to catch up I'd ask a question.. the answer to which I'd just been told! This has led to me being labelled 'scatterbrained', and caused comments about my memory all through my life. It used to worry me that I may be a bit thick, until I got older, realised what was happening, and could force myself to stay with the flow (doesn't mean I'm *not* thick though I guess :-). This, and the fact that I fail to 'file away' that which doesn't catch my interest much has caused me untold embarrassment. Thank Goodness I have a job I find interesting....... Hopefully it's just that. I'd hate to lose what little I've got! -- Regards, Glyn stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Science vs. Scientism
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/284)
12:46:12
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
News bit: Apparently the UT has concluded their 'target' study with mostly N/A. The Precog target site at www.psiresearch.org/ (Dean Radin's UNLV) is also down or having severe difficultiies. Bevy J stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Warning/ memory loss?
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/285)
12:46:28
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
> I am interested in a comment you made in your WARNING post which mentioned >short term memory loss? I say this because I feel my short term memory >capabilities have decreased since serious training in RV. Its almost as if >something has to be compramised in order for there to be facility for Rv. >Do you have any info on this you can share? > >All the best... > >Darryl Hi Darryl; I posted something similar on PJ's web and got back several replies. Some of them sited scientific studies documenting short term memory loss associated with certain brain activities. I would forward them to you but I have had a computer crash and they were all deleted. Ingo insisted when we were going through training that we take vitamin B. This seems to help. The problem is I keep forgetting to by the vitamins. When I do buy them I forget to take them. When I do remember to take them, I forget where I put them. The answer is to buy about five bottles and stash them all around the house. Hope this helps. slainte May the force be with you Liam stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Psi and money/personal ethics
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/286)
12:46:40
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
I must in all honesty agree with much of what Paul says and what Yaana says. imho the dictionary meaning of 'gift' is something one receives the meaning of 'reward' is something we are given, not as a gift, but in return for something we've done There has been a 'sticky wicket' surrounding the use of PSI and money which began, I believe, with Edgar Cayce's experiences. The motives of those who sought to use his abilities to enrich themselves came to grief. Cayce was a man of very high morals. We all respect that. I must, in all honesty, abstract healing from what follows. It is in a separate category also imho. If you feel that PSI and/or remote viewing is something you received as a gift, and did nothing to deserve, then your own natural morality and inner consciousness should be your own best guide. If you are a greedy person, then so be it. If you are in need of money for the utility companies, then so be it. If you have spent years working hard at something, then it might not be a 'gift' but a reward for effort expended unless you want to specify that it is a gift that everyone without exception gets, and that without any hard work or effort, some have been able to exercise it. That's one position. If you have spent years working hard at learning tennis, should you turn down any monetary return for the skill you worked so long and hard to attain? If you have spent years working hard at learning to write, or to paint, or play music, should you turn away payment for your learned skills? Since most of us in this field for several decades are agreed that everyone HAS the ability to develop PSI, and to use it, then its possession could possibly still be considered a gift, but again; then it is a gift we ALL get. We can use it or not, as we choose. I do not believe, as a point of argument, that there is, or should be, any prohibition (or blame) associated with the use of PSI/RV for making money. The purpose of making the money should be what is under judgement, if anything. I also do not believe that anyone who is using the abilities to make an honest living should be chastised or made to feel that they are guilty of some indiscretion. Along the same lines, it is my opinion that adding the words "God-given" to the mix only confuses the issue further. If we are agreed that we have a Creator and that all our talents come from this Creator, then we are back to square one. If one has independent means, or a great job or a fine income, or a nice pension, and wants to use PSI/RV as a sort of 'armchair explorer' technique...then again, so be it. If one lacks the above, then we are in a different category with a different standard. It then becomes not a matter of altruism, but of hard reality and monthly bills. The question then becomes, should those who teach these learned skills, or write about these skills, or who use these skills be subjected to different standards? If so, then why? It would seem to be a personal choice, or a necessity, and nothing for which to be blamed, either way. Although I have chosen to be a writer and a 'field researcher' and not to become a 'reader' (whatever that is construed to be) myself, as I do not feel that path is right for me; there are others who have done so to pay bills, to put a child through College, or just to live. Should they then be held to some higher standard? If we are Christians we have been prohibited from judging others. If we are of some other religious persuasion, the teachings are the same. Bevy J http:www.slipstrym.com/uspsisquad/ stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Psi and money/personal ethics
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/287)
12:47:01
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Re: [stargate] Psi and money/personal ethics >I do not believe, as a point of argument, that there is, or should be, any >prohibition (or blame) associated with the use of PSI/RV for making money. Hello, When I made my post I had no idea that I was joining what was going to become a full debate on the topic; I was simply offering my own opinion and was hoping to leave it at that. I believe people should use the technique as they see fit. I'm not qualified to rule on people's use of the technique in their own circumstances; they and only they can judge whether they feel their use of the technique is justified, etc. My comments were personal and limited solely to me. If I develop psi skills, I would like to use them to help others and for healing. I in no way suggested others had to agree with this and I respect other people's opinions on this topic, and they are welcome to make as much money directly or indirectly from the skill as they like. Afterall, what can I do about it, even if I disagree with them? If people want to use psi abilities to enrich themselves, so be it. I will not attempt to stop them (nor could I should I wish it). I, however, would hope I'd use the ability to help others and not just myself. But, again, that is my personal opinion. Everyone has opinions, and they're welcoem to them. I do not believe I am qualified to provide answers to *other* people's moral issues. That's their concern, and depends on their moral and emotional beliefs. I would just like to point out that my small contribution was never intended to be taken quite so literally or disected as advice for others to follow. If I had known that this topic would turn into a full-fledged discussion/debate, I would certainly not have offered my few philosophical thoughts on the subject, because I do not feel I am qualified to comment on other people's philosophical or moral beliefs. Best regards, Steve. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Psi and money/personal ethics
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/288)
12:47:45
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Steve-- At 02:05 PM 7/11/98 +-100, you wrote: >When I made my post I had no idea that I was joining what was going to become >a full debate on the topic; I was simply offering my own opinion and was hoping >to leave it at that. Don't panic! ;-) I myself had forgotten that the psi/money discussion had even begun with you. Don't apologize for starting it. Discussion groups are for bringing up relevant issues of common interest, and giving everyone a chance to speak his/her mind (in a civilized manner, of course!). I don't think any of us thought that you were trying to define anyone's behavior for them. In any case, the psi vs. money issue is an important ancillary issue to psi in general, so I'm glad you brought it up. Enjoy! Paul stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Peer Review
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/289)
12:48:03
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
> Because I understand it may be impractical or extremely difficult > for laboratories to implement this kind of system, I decided > to propose an online psi experiment, which I hope to back with > the same rigorous scientific controls/protocols etc as the original > experiments in the laboratories, in order to attempt to replicate > the findings of the labs. The only difference being the *entire > process* is open to peer-review by *the entire public*, and the > entire public is also free to contribute and participate throughout > each and every stage of the experiment. The only changes I'd > make to be the experiment would be anything that would need to > be modified in order for the experiment to work 'online'. Steve, and anybody else with a scientific background, I would be happy to assist you in any way I can. I worked at the PEAR Lab from 1987 through 1992 as research assistant, as well as participating in other psi lab research (PK and RV). I have on loan from PEAR a Portable true REG, software etc. which I have been using for my Ph.D. Dissertation Research. I also have some new software to undertake Field Consciousness Research (which I plan to implement after I finish writing my Dissertation, sometime nearer the end of this year.)So, I am conversant with psi collection data, analysis, presentation etc. So, any help I can give in these matters please email me privately. I would also be happy to help you set up a target pool of potential targets ie Outbounder or Coordinate. Let me know. Kind regards Angela Thompson Smith The Inner Vision Research Institute stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Chance Expectations
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/290)
12:48:13
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
I know we are moving away from the Red and Black thread but living in Las Vegas I hear some interesting things about the casinos. It seems that if someone at a routlette table is winning big, the pit boss will change dealers, putting in someone who can "throw the numbers". The wife of one of my students (she was a routlette dealer) became so skilled at throwing the ball onto the wheel that she could pretty much choose which number the ball would fall on. I have heard this happens at the Black Jack table too. Regarding whether red or black comes up more often or not, the casinos have the tables and machines geared to giving them back a healthy profit. Sure, some people win, and sometimes there are big winners, but there are more than enough losers to cover the losses. However, wherever there is a random process at work there is also the possibility that human consciousness can intervene and affect the outcome. PEAR has demonstrated this over more than a decade of laboratory studies at a reputable university. Kind regards Angela Thompson Smith MS LAURA J FALLON wrote: So blows my idea that black wins more on a roulette wheel. > Was it movement of the wheel, stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
tapes
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/291)
12:48:52
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Hi John, Inner Vision does not distribute or sell, Ed Dames tapes or any other PsiTech materials or materials from any other RV group. However, when I was in New Zealand in June, the organization there taped a 5-day ER course that I conducted. These tapes are being professionaly edited and will be available for about $75.00 as a 3-tape set in 1998. Please be warned that these tapes WILL NOT teach you ERV, they are not intended to be a teaching tool, just to show the various techniques, methods and protocols that are taught in an ERV course and the kinds of results you can expect. Kind regards Angela Thompson Smith John Krimes wrote: I wanted to get a copy of Daves > PK tape, I looked for it on your news letter archives where I remember > seeing it before but didn't find it this time. Can you tell me if its > still avaliable and the cost? Do you take credit cards? stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Warning/ memory loss?
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/292)
12:49:02
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Liam, do you still know which vitamine B supplements you took? Or have you forgotten that too ? ;-) All the best Frank V stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Warning/ memory loss?
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/293)
12:49:18
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>Liam, > >do you still know which vitamine B supplements you took? Or have you >forgotten that too ? ;-) > >All the best > >Frank V > Hi Frank; What was your question again. Oh yeah. type of vitamin B did Ingo have us take. You are right I did forget. I think it was either B1 or B2. I just take them all to be sure. Maybe Paul will recall more on this. Of course Paul is not in much better shape memory wise then I am. He has already forgot what a great singer I was/am. slainte May the force be with you Liam stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Sony psi research closed down
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/294)
12:49:30
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>> I doubt they would've managed to snag a copy of the Tech. Transfer >> Protocols from the farsight site before they were removed, as I >> have.. Hehe.. I wanna see if, at some point I can scrape together >> the resources to start a company based on the application of these >> protocols.. Anyone interested, drop me a line.. >> >> -Tao_Sk8r >As the Operations Director of just such a recovery firm, I dare say >this work is difficult enough without using ANYTHING related to >Courtney Brown as a basis for operations. Do yourself an enormous >favor and get some training from Lyn Buchanan or Paul Smith (both >top-flite CRV instructors)... unless you are trying to gather intel >on the Hale-Bopp Companion. >Good Luck, >Greg Ok, first, lemme say that I appreciate your response.. I just wanted to throw that out there for people to chew on, with the result of hopefully getting some interesting responses, and possibly a dialog.. Second, I have two points of contention with your derision of Courtney Brown.. While I am well aware of his mistake with the Hale-Bopp companion, and paying some attention to the developments on his site, and on Pru's has revealed the reasons behind this 'mistake', with the effext of making it highly avoidable.. The reason I've put mistake in quotes is that a website I've recently viewed has revealed that NASA and others have revealed that there actually was a companion, not to mention the many inexplicable photos I've garnered from various sources with pictures from observatories outside of this country, most notably one from Japan showing highly anomolous detail near HB.. Apologies to all you closed minded individuals who've already lumped me, at this point, firmly in thier wing-nut, flake, etc., list, but when I go grab that website, I'll post the link, and you can view the evidence yourselves.. Oh, and those protocols, though they are somewhat 'related' to Mr. Brown, were actually written, and as far as I know, concieved by Prudence Calabrese, who I hold in the highest regard.. Second, adressing your recommendation about real RV training; I understand your perspective, and indeed intent to make this sort of training a part of my agenda, once I have buko bucks to spare for it.. For now, I'll rely on the free resources, thank you much.. I guess the other reason for my hesitation is that, though it is quite possible I've missed it, as far as I know there are no tech transfer protocols included in the training given by your two recommended instructors.. Regards, Tao_Sk8r stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/295)
12:49:48
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Gene wrote: >though some swear they have made money in the stock market...and Lyn >even claims to have made money in the lotteries... Not to mention Prudence Calabrese's lottery group, which has done quite well.. Sorry if I seem to be harping on her, but I assure you, it is merely circumstantial.. http://www.largeruniverse.com -Tao_Sk8r stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/296)
12:49:58
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>>.but don't believe me...State lotteries love to try to prove it to >>you as do the casinos... >> Gene... >Gene's not just being a party pooper, guys, he's tellin' ya straight. >He's been there. Even Lyn will tell you CRV doesn't work on numbers. That's all good and well, but I've seen some discussion which has revealed to me that a great deal of that depends on your preconcieved notions (Belief Systems) about it.. Don't believe it, and you will surely be unable to accomplish it.. Test it out though, it's easy enough, and you don't have to bet to see if you would've won.. I had a friend who could routinely hit 4-5 numbers in the lottery, to the degree that he'd make side bets.. He finally hit 12 mil in Cali, and now I think he's off to wreak havok on other state's lotteries.. By the way, he did guess a few of the numbers correctly for me once, but at that point I didn't really believe enough to place my bet.. Incidentally his method wasn't RV, he would just see numbers on a blackboard, and the correct ones would light up, and he'd filter it down to the right amount of digits.. -Tao_Sk8r stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Red and Black Cards
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/297)
12:50:13
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>Hi all; Liam here. I have to go along with Greg and Gene on this >one. Maybe it is because making money is not all that important. For those who have incorrectly judged me on my contention that the facts differ about the possibility of using RV for this, I gotta say, I REALLY agree with Liam's assertion here.. I am sure it's possible, but I really don't see it as valuable.. I'd much rather get rich by grabbing patents from the future, and bringing technology to aid mankind to light before it's time.. Maybe some see this as little better, but aside from the opportunity to gain esoteric knowledge, I really don't see a whole bunch of other practical applications for RV besides this.. >Maybe it is because RV is magic and a gift. Using it to make "easy >money" seems a waste of the gift and a perversion of the magic. Yes, yes, and yes.. Very excellently stated Liam.. It is majick, and shouldn't be trivialized in this way for any other purpose than proving it's effectiveness.. > Even ARV has not proved to be terribly effective from the Targ >silver futures to the many attempts to break the bank at Vegas or >win the Lottery (sp correction). There seems to be one exception. >Pat Price evidently made money by RVing. Unfortunately he allegedly >died before he had a chance to enjoy most of it. Like I've said, it's blocked by BS (Belief systems) and monitor overlay.. That's my perspective, and I aint budging! Seriously, if you want proof, go look at Pru's lettory group section! I also gotta take issue with the parable (of a sort) about Pat Price.. While it has been shown that winning the lottery will usually ruin the lives of the winners (who are, maybe by some karmic rule, usually unprepared for winnings effects), this is not nessecarily always the case, and certainly our fears in this area have the potential to defy our courage, and make is surrender at the outset of the battle, as it were.. >I would like to see RV used to make the world a better place. If >that is not possible, then I would like to use RV to make me a better >person. I do not think winning a few million and retiring would make >me a better person. Enjoying the magic and recognizing there may be a >spiritual aspect to RV seems more important to me than taking early >retirement, buying a big house, and making Guinness a richer man >slainte >May the force be with you >Liam Once again, thanks for these points, they bear repeating ad infinitum, until they become ingrained in the consciousness of everyone who would view, and all viewers follow these ideas, instead of the material mundane.. -Tao_Sk8r stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Real World
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/298)
12:50:23
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
>Hi all; >Liam here. We live in a real world. A world where things are as >they are and not as we think or wish they would be. Welp, although I agree with you totally in spirit, I think the latest quantum thoery would tend to disagree with you about what out world is, in my view 'consensus reality', what ever our conscious and unconscious minds agree is reality, is.. >No elected official can be seen as to supportive of psi, lest it >become common knowledge, and the voters begin to giggle. Old Senator >Smith is talking to angels, won't vote for him again. No CEO can >invest millions of his company's dollars on what a psychic says, or >he will not be CEO very long. I have to disagree here, as well.. History has shown us examples that disprove this assertion.. Reagan consulted an astrologer (and is still greatly beloved by a large, albeit ignorant, segment of the population.. Sometimes I wonder what they'd think if they understood the implications of his executive order crusing much of the power of the FOIA), as does Hilliary (yah, she's not the pres, but her image reflects on his), as have a great number of corporate execs, although I have to admit that the openess with which they do so is somewhat in question.. Many can and do manage to keep this aspect of thier decision making process hidden from view, and proceed with it.. >What I do find strange is when we, who know that RV works, become >indigent and outraged, when businessmen, elected officials, and >researchers choose to live in the real world. Well, that is thier perception of the real world, and sure, when we, as humans know something works, and has unlimited potential, and see it oppressed, ignored, and in many cases ridiculed, we are outraged! As far as we can see, those people need to either grow some frickin' balls, or be a wimp by carrying on with it in secret! Peace, -Tao_Sk8r stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Warning/ memory loss?
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/299)
12:50:32
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
<< The problem is I keep forgetting to by the vitamins. When I do buy them I forget to take them. When I do remember to take them, I forget where I put them. The answer is to buy about five bottles and stash them all around the house. Hope this helps. >> Oh now look what you have started...general panic in the RV community...and the fact is you probably don't even remember what started all of this... Gene... Slainte.. stargate : Message: Re: [stargate]
Warning/ memory loss?
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/300)
12:50:46
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------
Liam, et al-- At 09:47 PM 7/11/98 +0200, you wrote: >What was your question again. Oh yeah. type of vitamin B did Ingo have us >take. >You are right I did forget. I think it was either B1 or B2. I seem to recall it was B1; but I think the solution is to take a broad-spectrum supplement so you be sure and get what you need--IF, of course, it really matters. In this case I can't recall that Ingo had strong evidence as to why he thought it was beneficial (but then again, I HAVE been neglecting my vitamins). Remember, though that some of the 'B's are toxic in too large doses (B6 comes to mind, but might be wrong). >to be sure. Maybe Paul will recall more on this. Of course Paul is not in >much better shape >memory wise then I am. He has already forgot what a great singer I was/am. Not at all, Liam. I remember how well you sang "Far Away," and I hope many times to keep hearing you sing "Far Away." Enjoy, Paul

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