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Source Location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/
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pjrv : Messages : 937-971 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/937?)
22:37:31
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#937

From: "PJ Gaenir" Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:23 pm Subject: The future of this list. dennanm Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Nobody else besides me posts stuff on their sessions. Er, Tunde did one, a long time ago. And I enjoy that Scott and Bill and a couple others 'refer to' their session work at least. I've posted sessions even that aren't good, to example something, I talk about failures or problems I have and most the time, you could hear a freakin' PIN drop in response. Like nobody else ever has those problems to relate to them. Or maybe everybody was perfect as soon as they learned Method X (they just mysteriously won't even talk about sessions, even selectively). It's a private list, and there are not that many people on it. So if there is some idea that THE GOVERNMENT IS WATCHING YOU or something -- well, you know, people need to get over that shit, the government does not care, and if they do and are reading it, they still do not care, so unless people are committing felonies as part of their RV I don't see what difference it makes. I recently removed a member (Joanie) because so many OTHER people had major personality conflicts with her from other venues that I felt this was 'overflowing' into dynamics in my own group and their reluctance to post. It is important to me that if I'm going to make a group private, accept only some who apply, and try to push a given charter for the value of such conversation, that this actually be successful. If it is not, there is not much point. I enjoy what people DO share on this list, but I'm beginning to feel the community in this field -- which means the members of this list now that is' private -- aren't interested in supporting the kind of experiential, serious discussion that I had in mind. I do NOT mean anybody needs to wax poetic as boringly or as long as I do, obviously, I am only pointing out that in about four months of life, there has been awfully little 'experiential' posting in or outside of RV. There were a few cool spontaneous ones (I still love the ones about the casino and the jeep for example). Don't see much though and not for a long time. And I like the PEM relationships I've developed with quite a few members who for whatever reason don't want to share on the list. It is frustrating to me though. Much of what I talk with them about I'd like to talk with others about too but I can't re-write the same stuff 17 times, can't copy their PEMs to others so I have some context, instead I just have several members who could make the list really interesting only being willing to talk to me. While I like talking to them, it just further makes me think a list is not what most people want. I am beginning to think if this is so unworkable (actually sharing real conversation about what they're doing, even if only once every couple of months for godssakes), maybe I should close this list. There are others after all. FARVIEW does practice targets, and STARGATE will keep you up to date on media, and there are several other RV lists if you search on the term in yahoo groups. My whole point in pursuing this list was to give people a relatively private group of people to talk seriously with about their personal experiences related to psychic/personal development -- in or out of session, but obviously since it's an RV group, something related to RV would be nice once in a great while. I don't care what. Dreams. RV. Psychic work. Meditation work. Whatever turns someone on. Just something relating to their personal experience. Not something incredible or amazing. Just how their day went in relation to thoughts or practices in their development. My conclusion is that either very few people are doing real RV or working earnestly on personal development, or more likely, it's just that very few people have any interest in seriously talking about it with others on a list. In which case, RV Oasis/pjrv seems a little unnecessary. I could clear it out and open it with about 10 people I write PEM regularly about RV who I suspect would talk to each other I suppose. Sigh. That isn't what I want to do. I am a little frustrated that I feel like I have an entire list of people specifically interested in the same things I am and specifically on MY list, yet somehow I feel like nobody is really interested in sharing this kind of stuff with me and/or publicly, and if I wanted to be a Lone Ranger, why would I bother with a list? I would appreciate any thoughts on this. PJ Reply | Forward

#941

From: rv...com Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:13 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. fetik3 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > Nobody else besides me posts stuff on their sessions. I posted one a while ago ( in fact, it's still up: http://www.fetik3.com/pjrv/070802/ ); given the lack of response (neither positive, nor negative) I assumed that it wasn't of any interest to the readers. That was one of the reasons that I decided to record and share my experience surrounding the session rather than the session itself. > Like nobody else ever has those problems to relate to them. Or maybe > everybody was perfect as soon as they learned Method X (they just > mysteriously won't even talk about sessions, even selectively). This reminds me of the phone conferences I have at work; people constantly forget that the speaker on the other end cannot hear you nod your head, or flash a smile... I'm guilty of that as well; lots of stuff that you've posted, PJ, which I have either agreed with, or taken notes about. I'll try to remind myself that you can't hear me nod, or consciously know hor your problems relate to my own experience. :) > I enjoy what people DO share on this list, but I'm beginning to feel > the community in this field -- which means the members of this list > now that is' private -- aren't interested in supporting the kind of > experiential, serious discussion that I had in mind. I suspect that this is a combination of people being embarassed to share their experiences, for fear of being sooooooo far behind the people who are proficient in methodology 'X', with people who simply DON'T PRACTICE. If you don't give any PSI activities a try, you aren't going to have much to share (except for the occasional rhetoric, picking apart the logic of another) > ...but I can't re-write the same > stuff 17 times, can't copy their PEMs to others so I have some > context Maybe you should create a list where these people could share their experiences with each other... Some sort of PSI-Experiential Mailing List... oh wait... > ...maybe I should close this list. There are others > after all. FARVIEW does practice targets, and STARGATE will keep you up > to date on media, and there are several other RV lists if you search on > the term in yahoo groups. I really hope you don't; I think this list has tremendous potential, in addition to already being one of the most interesting mailing lists I have joined. In any case, I'll continue (or start) to do my part; posting more interesting/relevant experiences, and discussing the posts of others. I hope the majority on this list will do the same; for those that have posted, please know that I greately appreciate the time and effort you have placed in sharing your experiences. -Jason ----------------------- Moderator's note: I'm so sorry, I forgot - you did. And the reason I didn't respond is because I put off looking at it until I had some real time to consider it and write, my filter filed the email, and out of sight, out of mind, I flat out forget. Sheesh. Well anyway.... PJ Reply | Forward

#947

From: "Scott Ellis" Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:25 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. scottrver Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, I enjoy the list and hope you don't abandon it prematurely. > I am a little frustrated that I feel like I have an entire list of > people specifically interested in the same things I am and > specifically on MY list, yet somehow I feel like nobody is really > interested in sharing this kind of stuff with me and/or publicly, and > if I wanted to be a Lone Ranger, why would I bother with a list? On the HRVG list there was a post by someone on some RV target management software that you can buy and someone else responded they would like to write some software - requesting input on features. I responded that I had already written a sophisticated application with features up the wazoo and would consider making it available for free if there was enough interest (I didn't want to document it, build an installation, etc. for just one person). I requested that anyone interested PEM me. I haven't received a single PEM. I don't know what the deal is - I think it's just there aren't that many people actually doing RV. As for experiential posting - if the bulk of your experience is in doing a mostly home evolved flavor of ERV like I am, it doesn't conform to a common structure like CRV does. (I think I actually posted my methodology at one point.) Most of my methodological experience doesn't seem very applicable to what others are doing, and the converse seems true too. But I enjoy the protocol related discussions much more here than elsewhere - and I would argue that those are experiential. More thoughts later. Scott Reply | Forward

#950

From: "Glyn" Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 4:08 pm Subject: RE: The future of this list. gebega Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, I had just fired a long (hopefully not toooooo boring ;-), mail off to the list when I saw this one. I am as guilty as any, because although I read voraciously, I tend to post a lot in clusters, separated by long gaps. Regarding the posting of sessions, I must admit I haven't. I have not done many lately however, apart from some ARV. I had a very stressful time in my personal life over the last 6 months (family health probs), and I find I just can't function properly (psi wise), when stressed out...and my sessions definitely 'sucked'. Quite frankly I lost a bit of motivation too, which didn't help......but fortunately I think it is coming back at last :-). At the moment I am concentrating on learning Analysis, which I find absolutely fascinating, and I do believe that I find other people's sessions far more interesting than mine :-). I will shortly be starting to do some though....the light is at the end of the tunnel, and I feel the mood coming back on :-). It must be really frustrating running a list like this and ending up thinking that you are virtually talking to yourself. Well, I assure you that you are not. I for one, read absolutely everything...probably too much so. I am on a few RV related lists, and am so busy reading about RV that I sometimes find I haven't got time to post about it, so it may seem I have nothing to say. Actually, once on a roll I can waffle for hours...but you would definitely go private if I did that. LOL!! You said.. > I could clear it out and open it with about 10 people I write PEM > regularly about RV who I suspect would talk to each other I suppose. > Sigh. That isn't what I want to do. No, that's not what I want you to do either...cos I'm not one of them :-) :-). You said.. > I am a little frustrated that I feel like I have an entire list of > people specifically interested in the same things I am and > specifically on MY list, yet somehow I feel like nobody is really > interested in sharing this kind of stuff with me and/or publicly, and > if I wanted to be a Lone Ranger, why would I bother with a list? LOL!!! Give it a bit longer PJ. I'll try to post more, and if others do too then maybe we can make it work better. You are a source of a great deal of knowledge, and we don't want to lose you :-). Kind regards, (I'm sorry if the formatting of this mail is all over the place, but I'm trying to get used to a new mailer, and it's going berserk on me..:->) Glyn Reply | Forward

#961

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 11:58 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, I see on Farview and Maddog people do sessions and discuss them. But those groups tend to elliminate all that do not do the sessions..because that is what the group discusses. If you really want that kind of sharing.. you should post a target and insist that everyone does one at least once a month or so. Also, then you will get more interaction on your posts. You tend to pour your soul into really long descriptions of targets that only you have done. It leaves little for people to input since they have not done the same session. Except to say good incite or something. I'm happy the way things are here.because I like the people and like your viewpoints.. and because occasionally really important issues are brought up.. Or you post things like Joes interviews. But if you want that kind of detailed sharing ..well we all need to do the same sessions at least once a month and discuss our own and each oathers.. IMO. Perhaps we could get some novelty and distinction by focusing on certain facets of RV for our sessions. We could all listen to theta tapes ...or we could all take Lucid Dragon before doing sessions..(G). Or we could all try what you suggested and carefully analyze our feedback in theta for metaphors etc. Pru REALLY stresses that in her work as the real key. She always insists we are always getting something..just not interpreting correctly...G Hugs, Bill
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group---------------- Moderator's note: Please stop making me feel better Bill, or by morning I'll be dead. lol. No but seriously, thanks for the input, I will consider all this advice about the list. What it sounds like is most people want one kind of list and I want another, I guess. - PJ Reply | Forward

#971

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 2:03 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, I was trying a maddog target last night and I got a blank also..and a head ache when persisting. I finally got something using my "fog" technique. I imagine the whole view is blocked by a fog and I turn on a fan and the wind blows it away revealing X.. but it still felt awful and not at all clean and nice. maybe its the solar wind.. or I'm subconciously depressed about the 4-5 months of rainy cloudy weather up here in seattle and no more good golf weather ahead for 4-5 months..urg! Maybe my knees will be up to some skiing..need something..G best regards, Bill pjrv : Messages : 970-983 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/970?)
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#970

From: "David" Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:28 pm Subject: The Future of the List dem607 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 PJ and List, I'm afraid I may be one of the list members who has been lurking a lot more than I have contributed publicly. A big part of the problem is my recent frustrations at the RV sessions I have attempted, a lack of time to attempt the sessions and a host of personal set-backs that I am finally starting to recover from. Things were really starting to go pretty well for me as far as my RV sessions. I started doing sessions again in earnest back around May after a hiatus of almost a year or more. (I took a CRV class in Oct 97 and did pretty well with practice targets for about 2 years after that.) I attended the IRVA conference in June and picked up a copy of Skip Atwater's "Captain of my Ship, Master of My Soul." I remember reading somewhere that Atwater had claimed that the real value of RV is not actually in the ability, but in the psychic journey of awareness that one goes through after being exposed to RV. (I am probably paraphrasing heavily since I don't remember exactly what he wrote, but I hope you get the general idea). That idea made me began to re-think my position and thoughts on RV. Maybe I was jumping the gun and attempting something that, to be done correctly and properly required a level of personal psychic/spiritual awareness that I did not yet possess. So, I decided to put the RV on the back burner awhile and began attempting to find a way of developing my own personal spiritual awareness. I have begun meditating (listening to Brain Sync cd's "Deep Meditation' and even "Deep Sleep" for starter's) and have been seeking ways to better incorporate into my life the suggestions that Atwater made in his book. (I recall a couple of suggestions were "embrace humanity" and to live your life in a way that others can see that you are aware that you are a divine reflection of GOD (or GOD I AM ). WWW.beliefnet.com has daily inspirational emails (Christian wisdom, Hindu Wisdom, Buddhist Wisdom) that have been personally enlightening and have allowed me to see the value of teachings of other religions, in addition to Christianity. At any rate, the results have been positive. In the past few months I have noticed and experienced a greater sense of inner peace and well- being. I still maintain a strong interest in RV and a desire to one day be able to utilize it for the good of all. I am not really sure when I will attempt to jump back into RV practice (very soon I hope). I have come to realize that even if I don't ever attempt another RV session, my exposure to RV has led to a newly discovered (or re-discovered?)awareness of who I am. David Reply | Forward

#983

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:00 pm Subject: Re: The Future of the List docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hey David, Why not do both? I've read and heard from some inspiring people spiritual principals such as: We are all connected and some how a unity. Our minds are infinite... but it was only thru RV that I learned that this is actually so. Our minds are all connected and connected to all knowledge thru all space and all time..how's that for a learning experience. Before RV I didn't really trust those sayings. Best Regards, Bill --- David wrote: > So, I decided to put the RV on the back burner > awhile and began > attempting to find a way of developing my own > personal spiritual > awareness. pjrv : Messages : 974-991 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/974?)
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#974

From: Richard Krankoski Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:27 pm Subject: Re: The Future of the List Rich_crv Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 jeez, just when I get around to explaining why I lurk so much because of time restraints, along come a dozen or more good, long posts on the header topic. :) I have stacks of printouts from posts that I need to digest and will get to them "tomorrow", at lunch or something... :) I just digested the RV session that Jason posted. I moved it to the top of the pile. :) One other reason is that subject matter like chackras and some other psi topics are not part of my experience and while interesting, I don't follow them very closely. I am having enough trouble (and getting into trouble) focusing on RV. I still have not attended my first experiencer's meeting at Rhine despite reminding myself every month that I missed it again. Time flies when you are remodeling. Rich Reply | Forward

#976

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:25 pm Subject: Re: First experiencers meeting docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Richard, First Experiencers meeting???? I thought you were married...G Would you please explain what that meeting was? Best Regards, Bill --- Richard Krankoski wrote: > I still have not attended my first experiencer's > meeting at Rhine despite > reminding myself > every month that I missed it again. > Time flies when you are remodeling. Reply | Forward

#991

From: Richard Krankoski Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 7:38 pm Subject: Re: First experiencers meeting Rich_crv Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > Bill Pendragon wrote: > First Experiencers meeting???? I thought you were > married...G Would you please explain what that > meeting was? Sorry, that's one of those private closet things. :) Rich pjrv : Messages : 940-1136 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/940?)
22:49:00
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#940

From: Timelord2029... Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 10:07 am Subject: Re: The future of this list. psitrooper24 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ You know i would like nothing more that to share stuff ive learned over the past couple of months with others and see how other methods compare to my work but if iam being honest.. i think this list is to big for such a leap in trust and sharing from what ive seen so far in the rv community. The last time i saw a full CRV session was last year since then nothing. But i dont frequent that many lists as i have a fulll time job and kids to look after like most people here. HRVG, stargate, free vent, Angela Thompsons list, IRVA, Your list, and recently bananaslam are the only lists i have time for. Iam on a few other RV lists but they rarely post much info if any at all, Its hard work doing 2 let alone 5 targets a week and i know people are putting their time and effort into RV quitely behind the scenes and share stuff within their own circles but it will be a long time before you get HRVG TDS CRV TRV dudes posting/sharing full sessions on a list this size. I think maybe a Fun RV competition to bring these groups together might break the ice abit but otherwise i cant see how the trust factor is going to work with all these groups doing their own thing. Just a few thoughts for now anyway Peace, tunde Reply | Forward

#946

From: SValkyre... Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 12:02 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. svalkyre Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi, PJ and everyone else, I am not an RVer, although I am interested in RV. I am a "practicing" psychic and have the same frustrations over interpretations of psychic impressions as RVers have. Recently, I have begun to notice in my own readings that it is not my interpretation that really matters, I tell the client what I see and hear (it has the advantage of being an in-person interview, even though I do not have them give me any information up front, other than their name) and the client responds with questions and comments, often filling in the blanks for me about what it is that I am picking up on. I don't know what the solution is for learning to "nail" the interpretation -- I might see a blond haired child on a horse (the Sun card in the Ryder/Waite deck) and tell the person that sunshine is coming into their life, or that there is a child who is very important to them or that they will be getting outdoors more, spending more time with nature and animals. The difference in interpretation is in what I "pick up" when I see the card in a specific place in a reading. I don't understand it. It is hard for me to tie most of what I experience into anyone else's experience. I appreciate PJ's openness and helpful attitude and those of several others. I enjoy this group. However, I have also experienced the inability to really "get into" a thread by responding to it. I have gotten some positive feedback when I write, but I don't know what else to say. I am very esoteric, I don't "play" well with others who use terms I don't understand -- I am easily confused about AOLs and PEMs and just give up sometimes! I appreciate your dilemma, PJ, you have put in a lot!!!!! of work and don't feel much is coming of it. I want to tell you that your posts are absolutely amazing and often leave me in awe, the way you can tell what's going on in RV, which is a wonderful tool, if one can use it properly. Just writing to tell you thanks for the things I have learned so far. What can I do to help? Deni Silver Valkyre May we all have light sufficient for our path, and may some light the path for others. Reply | Forward

#949

From: "David Humphries" Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 4:00 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. a_healey56 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, The different lists seem cyclical to me. PJRV was going strong for a while and FV was almost silent, and its flip-flopped now. It seems like a lot of the same people are on PJRV and FARVIEW, and they only have so much to relate. I know that you have targets available for viewing at your Firedocs site, but why don't you put one up for everyone on PJRV to view and analyze like on FV? Eva only does two targets a month, so it's not like you would bog everyone down with another one periodically. And the analysis on FV seems to stimulate lots of conversation. I think it's sort of strange that since this is an RV list that you don't do it anyway. It would surely stimulate conversation on the list, especially if you could persuade some of the experienced RVer's to join in too. I've often wondered why only three or four beginners are the only ones who submit sessions on FV. It would be much more interesting if a few more people joined in. PJ, I say grab the bull by the horns and generate some RV conversation with some RV. :-) Dave Reply | Forward

#955

From: "nita...ulse.com" Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 7:38 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. nitahickok Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ I do a lot more none RV stuff than I have rv but I have had a few new ideas lately. They sort of tie in on what you wrote about time and I was waiting to see where it led. I guess I should have jumped in there. I don't see time as linear but I do see what affects me as before or after I view something as if my braing is trying to fit it into my understanding. The way you put it as accurate as I have heard it. I believe that we judge the occurances by when we insert our knowledge of the event into the timestream. We have a lot of choices that we can make but it is as if at that point the choice is more or less set. Binah and the beginning is just a start then it is swimming the time lines in the sea of change and seeing the currents. The end result should be known by the time you reach the other side and release the information into the ether so you will remember and know it. I have a meditation called the eight temples meditation project if anyone is interested. ARV using the view the feedback has a implied understanding of this target on this timeline where I see the final choice. I believe that a lot of the failures are because we do not apply the implications to the project we are doing. We are supposed to be narrowing the focus to the correct point in time instead of planning how to spend the 92 million dollars we will win when we pick the right Powerball numbers. NIta Whenever you hear that someone else has been successful, rejoice. Always practice rejoicing for others-whether they are your friend or enemy. If you cannot practice rejoicing, no matter how long you live, you will not be happy. Lama Zopa Rinpoche, "Transforming Problems into Happiness". Reply | Forward

#957

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 8:13 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. ozblueriver Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, You were saying........... > My conclusion is that either very few people are doing real RV or > working earnestly on personal development, or more likely, it's just > that very few people have any interest in seriously talking about it > with others on a list. I love reading pjrv posts and would dearly love to discuss many things about my RVing but right from the start you stated that it was not for beginners. I have only been in the RV arena for about a year so I have tried not to comment on anything, even though I would like to, and just stick to reading the posts and learning as much as I can that way. I have found pjrv to be invaluable as the discussions are generally very interesting. If you ever decide to include us 'newbies' I'll post. Cheers Liz
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group------------- Moderator's note: Well gee Liz, if you've been doing this for a YEAR and you still feel like you're not qualified to have a conversation here, I don't know what to say to that. My deliberately qualifying this list as 'intermediate' is because I spent a helluva lot of my time re-re-re-re-answering questions like "So RV is when you leave your body and..." on the VWR list with others, which I archived publicly... and I don't want to cover that ground again. There are people on this list who don't do RV at all, who do meditation stuff, or other psi-related stuff, and they do fine. I try to keep the methodology stuff to a minimum as that is interminably covered elsewhere (including in the VWR archives on Firedocs.com) so the conversation could be more personal and less 'partisan' (for all the good it's done). You are certainly welcome to join in the conversation here if you wish. PJ Reply | Forward

#963

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:04 pm Subject: Re: Mud targets docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, Well the last time I had that problem.. of total blank sessions.. it was three people in a mud bath, with just faces showingout of the mud. You know..I just don't want to even see a bunch of mud.. :-) Bill Reply | Forward

#966

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 11:50 am Subject: Re: The future of RV docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Tunde, I always thought an xRV-Olympics would go along way towards sorting the chaff from the wheat..but if it ever happens it will have to be financed and organized from without. Most of the various established RV schools would only compete (IMO) if they had to. Best regards, Bill Reply | Forward

#979

From: Timelord2029... Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:49 am Subject: Re: The future of RV psitrooper24 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Bill, > I always thought an xRV-Olympics would go along way > towards sorting the chaff from the wheat..but if it > ever happens it will have to be financed and organized > from without. Most of the various established RV > schools would only compete (IMO) if they had to. I am sure they would all jump at the chance to take part LOL I remember you once brought up a similar idea on stargate a few years back but nothing ever came of it. I agree it would have to be organised by an independent group but surely IRVA could come up with something similar? or get a research organsition involved in the project? Peace, Tunde Reply | Forward

#987

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 7:42 pm Subject: Re: The future of RV docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Tunde, Realistically, there has to be a motive. Otherwise the estabilished groups would be doing work and taking a risk of losing face for very little to gain. I don't see a big enough motive for groups to put in the effort unless someone puts up big $,$$$,$$$ for the winner. That would motivate people. Something like the Survivor show.. only with groups dependent on RV and psi skills to survive. Perhaps we should write to the big shot that started Art Bell off or Bill Gates or someone..G Best Regards, Bill Reply | Forward

#1000

From: "Eva" Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 7:49 pm Subject: Would groups be willing to demo their skills? k9caninek9 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > Realistically, there has to be a motive. Hi Bill, a possible motive could be advertisment and proof of one's skills and what rv is capable. One way to run it would be to do future predictions of safe and nonprofit outcomes, like for instance that recent thing where they sent the robot into the pyramid shaft on live TV. That could have been given out to rv groups and the results posted before the event occured. The results would be all posted at once so as to preclude copying. If a group didn't like the target, then the group would be free to skip it. No one could cheat because the answer would not be known until later. The actual target could be given to the groups' leaders or taskers and they could work it the way they wanted. I think what we need to pull it off would be a respected person or several people running it that can do or get done the website elements and suitable target selection. If all that was done and the target was acceptable, I think maybe a few groups would be willing to run predictions on it and those that didn't might look kinda wimpy if they didn't eventually join in. For instance, I suspect that Pru would probably be willing. Another possibility would be McMoneagle if he is willing to make the time. They both have been forthcoming with demos in the past and there may be others that would be willing. You'd have to set it up and then start talking to the group leaders to show them you are ready to make their efforts worthwhile. I think one thing is that we would have to do only one target about every few months so the groups would not feel it too much of a burden to participate when a target came up. Some groups have more resources than others too. -E Reply | Forward

#1025

From: "PJ Gaenir" Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:03 pm Subject: Re: Would groups be willing to demo their skills? dennanm Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Re: these ideas... Two years ago I planned in great detail an online psi website that would allow dynamic practice, drills, private and public, challenges and judging and analysis as well as viewing, dowsing, games, some of the edu nobody seems to get in methods training, and other things I thought was useful. A cross between a tool for personal work, a social environ, a challenge/gaming environ, ARV solo or team, and a chance for anybody even anonymously to 'demo' if they wanted. Got a number of great people willing to be part of an oversight committee for it, so it'd be 'legit' in a formal sense as well. Had everything all planned, and around half the first 'focus group' edu written... ... but when I came back online earlier this year, my conclusion was that the field just doesn't have the quality of interest, or quantity of people with any quality of interest to support the work it would take me. Let alone do I think it could get $ support for membership so it didn't cost out of my pocket on top of extensive time. I was pleased to see Marty's site, as it does one part of what I had in mind, and he could expand those scripts to allow more I imagine. You can't lead a horse to water if there is no horse. An idiom I'm sure will baffle the non-americans on the list, lol. PJ Reply | Forward

#967

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:33 am Subject: Re: The future of this list. ozblueriver Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 G'day PJ, You were saying..... > I try to keep the methodology stuff to a minimum as > that is interminably covered elsewhere (including in > the VWR archives on Firedocs.com) so the conversation > could be more personal and less 'partisan' (for all > the good it's done). You are certainly welcome to > join in the conversation here if you wish. PJ Although I have been reading about RV for the last year I have only been practicing it since Pru put up her on-line classes. I do feel a lot more at ease with all the terminology now so I will make a point of putting a bit into the conversations from now on when I feel I have something that might be of interest. I like Daves idea of putting up a bi-weekly target, although it does seem that we are in the minority on that point. But if you do decide to do it you will have two people who will post their results without fear of.......?........gosh what is everyone scared of, or am I missing something? Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#972

From: "Mary Ashley" Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:35 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. maryladyoflight Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ... :) I know how frustrating it is.. for quite some time on innerlight, I set targets and monitored them.. even a couple of operational ones... it took a big commitment of time and energy.. the last time I set one, only one person responded, so I gave up. I am not complaining. People have free choice. However it is an indication of the lack of interest in serious practical application. MaryA Reply | Forward

#973

From: "David Humphries" Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:47 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. a_healey56 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 What's a maddog? Hi PJ, I was trying a maddog target last night and I got a blank also..and a head ache when persisting. Reply | Forward

#980

From: "Eva" Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 11:21 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. k9caninek9 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 LOL! Maddog is a mailing list that does a lot of target stuff. I should probably comment on the overall thread as well. In my opinion, a mailing list rarely if ever turns out the way it is intended. You can't swim against a riptide even if you are a salmon. The members will take it in the direction they will take it and there is little that can be done except to swim laterally and see where you end up. But it doesn't mean that the direction has no value for those involved. Is the list for the benefit of the moderator or for the benefit of the members? Or perhaps both? Well as far as I can tell, the members feel that they are getting benefit. -E --------------------------- Moderator's note: Well I have done my time in RV 30x over at least. Although everything I do is with an eye to solidifying things for the future in particular, as far as discussion lists go, I made this one for me! I had some buddies I wanted to talk to. I thought I'd invite others. But most my buddies apparently don't want to talk on-list with all the others. :-( I like the others though.... Then again, if most the stuff covered could be done elsewhere, then they don't really need me, and I don't know that I want to spend yet more time doing anything for 'everyone else' in RV instead of myself, I learned that lesson from 20,000 leagues under. If there isn't a genuine need, I could spend that time on other things and there would be no harm. I made this list so experiential discussion could be had between people serious about development in one way or another, and this could be archived, and someday, when at least a couple of 'em end up good viewers (or dowsers or psychics or whatever), there will be a breadcrumb trail for others. What were they thinking about, what problems did they have, what really moved them, that sort of thing. I think it would do well for the field as a whole, and could be invaluable to seriously interested individuals. But if the conversation isn't much worth archiving because it's really not experiential which was my goal, then it's just me doing more time in RVland typing archives and so forth instead of spending that time on sessions or my kid. On the bright side the PEM politics have nearly died, thanks be to God... I'm going to be working my butt off for the next couple of months, so I'm not really going to have much time to worry about it I guess. I will trust that my pleas will inspire someone, somewhere, in some way, eventually. I will revisit the subject after the new year. If it still isn't much experiential, I'll clear the list and move on to something else. I appreciate everybody joining me here, and I like what people have to say -- my comments might make it seem like I just don't like the list but it's that at all -- I do, I'm just very focused, and there are reasons why that has value especially in this field. I've tried all kinds of things to inspire people toward personalized posting and all to no avail. I'm to the point where I'm thinking archiving 6 people who are dedicated viewers with serious discussions about RV might be better than archiving 75 (or even 400) people who seldom get into the nitty-gritty of things. But we'll see how it goes. A couple more months and then another retrospective. It's funny because aside from the long or offbeat posts, most people I know really like *reading* experiential posts. They just don't much like making them I guess. :-) PJ Reply | Forward

#1001

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 3:45 pm Subject: Re: Re: The future of this list. docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, Some people may not know exactly what you mean by experiential posts? Perhaps you should post some examples of others posts that you consider good experiential posts. Best Regards, Bill -------------------------- Moderator's note: Geeesh. Have you never in your life written to other people about things that caught your attention in the day, an interesting dream you had, something you've been thinking or wondering about, etc. etc.? It's a wide-open specification: thoughtful, experiential, whatever the hell people want, hemi-sync or meditation or dowsing or whatever in some way, even indirectly, relates to psi, but definitely relates to their personal experience or development. I don't get what's so hard about it. We've been through this on this list more than once. I'm not trying to put the talk in a box for goodness sake. I'm just trying to aim it in the direction I think is most useful both for me as a developing viewer and for future archive readers who may also be. There is more than enough "chatting" level talk in the RV world already... PJ Reply | Forward

#1007

From: "Glyn" Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 3:00 am Subject: An experiential post gebega Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi guys, no apparent interest in the future memory stuff, so here's something else you may find more interesting. Again a bit long. Going back to my childhood...my mother told me and my sister that she had heard 'knockings' shortly before her mother died. By 'shortly' it was just a few weeks I think. My grandmother had cancer, so her death was anticipated , even if not expected so soon. Mum said she was lying in bed and there were about 3 or 4 short raps on her bedroom door. She 'come in', and at having no response she got up and opened the door. No-one was there, and on enquiring, Mum learned that no-one in the house (only family) had come to her door. I heard 'knockings' before my first husband died. I was ironing in the kitchen (yup good way to get into an 'altered state'), and the outer door was ajar (This in turn opened on to a short corridor which had at each end a door, one to the back garden and one to the front garden). Suddenly I heard a number of short raps on the kitchen door, just as if someone was wanting to come in; unmistakable. The thing is....both the outer doors were locked and bolted, and the knockings were *definitely* on that inner door! My husband died unexpectedly about 3 weeks later. He had not been ill, and was only 31. My sister heard the knocks before our mother died. She was in a friend's kitchen ironing (again) at the time and there were knocks on the kitchen door. She was in a flat (apartment) and there was a long staircase down to a private front door; which was locked. She was alone at the time, so you can imagine her reaction! Mum was having problems with her health and undergoing tests, but nothing really worrying...she was diagnosed as having cancer and went downhill suddenly and died in about 3 weeks. My turn again....I heard the knocks before my Dad died. Dad was 89 years old, and he was experiencing problems and was undergoing tests to see what was wrong. I was on holiday (vacation) and staying in a small downstairs flat. My husband had gone out fishing and I was on my own. I was walking from the bedroom into the main room when I heard sudden loud knocks on the front door. I thought it may be him, but I could see there was nobody there because the door was glass. I listened in case it was next door, but there was no movement, and it did not happen again. Dad died about 3 weeks later, suddenly unexpectedly from a sudden internal haemorrage. The common feature is the relatively short time between hearing the knocks and the death of someone close. Understandably my sister and I live in dread of hearing them. One thing is sure, the one that hears them isn't the one who is going to die....but that is not really any comfort. It may not only be family members, perhaps anyone who is close and loved....I have had odd experiences before a good friend was struck down by a stroke at 32, and even before my pet dog died, but they are slightly different experiences, and not as 'clear'.. One thing though...we are *so* confident of them that when my husband was taken very seriously ill a few months ago and even the doctors thought (they told us later) that he didn't have much of a chance, I was fairly confidence he was not going to die because lack of the 'usual' warning. What is going on here though? If it is a warning then it is a pretty useless one, as nothing can really be done, and we don't even know for sure who it is going to be! I don't think there is a spirit hanging around with the express purpose of rapping on our doors when something is going to happen to someone in our family. Would have better things to do I hope ...or the afterlife is going to be extremely boring. :-)) A PK effect maybe? Perhaps something is picked up subconsciously and we are warning ourselves (?). Again it's a bit of a waste of time really. I understand that these 'death rappings' can be fairly common though. Any thoughts or similar experiences of your own anyone, that can perhaps throw a little light here? Regards, Glyn ------------------------ Moderator's note: I have FM interest, just haven't had time to post the last several days. Will get to it eventually fyi. :-) PJ Reply | Forward

#1012

From: Barbara Baumgardner Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 9:04 am Subject: Re: An experiential post RE: Rappings threebears4u Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Glyn, Regarding your rappings--I have never had the experience, but I have had another you may be interested in --the time frame is the same. Years ago when I sort of realized some of the abilities of a psychic nature and started experimenting with them just to see .....what could be found out....I asked ---or I put it out for the " other side " to tell me who in my church family would be the next to die. I asked this before I went to sleep at night. Sometime during the night I got a poloroid picture in color placed right in front of my face showing me my Sunday School teacher. He was neither sick nor 'old'. I saw this picture of him laying in a coffin every night (for the duration of about 1 minute ) for 3 weeks to the day and then he died of a heart attack. At the time I went to a Southern Baptist Church and there was no way I was going to tell anyone in the church about it, but I did try and find out how he was feeling and he said he was feeling very well. He had not been sick at all. Several years later someone from the ARE was speaking with me about this and asked if I could do it again. So I asked again---even though the first time upset me because I didn't know what to do with this knowledge. This time the same thing happened--I asked at night and that night and ever other for 3 weeks I saw a poloroid picture of the church treasurer laying in a coffin., This time I tried harder to stop this. I even asked him if he had a recent physical with the doctor--he had just had one for work--they were regularly scheduled once a year by his work. He was feeling fine. He died of a heart attack 3 weeks later--just like the first one. I saw a picture every night of both of them until they died. I never asked this again. My one consulation--I know there is no death, but just a crossing over into another demension. Most of my family died when I was very young and I have seen them over and over from time to time. Regards, Barbara Reply | Forward

#1049

From: "Glyn" Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 4:53 pm Subject: RE: An experiential post RE: Rappings gebega Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hello Barbara, That's amazing. I guess there's just as much disadvantage in knowing who is going to die, as not knowing...if you can't do anything about it. If anything, it would be worse because of the sheer helplessness. No wonder you've never asked this again, I don't think I would. If unalterable, there are future events I would rather not know in advance. You said.. >My one consulation--I know there is no death, but just a crossing over into >another demension. Most of my family died when I was very young and I have >seen them over and over from time to time. I have never actually seen an apparition/ghost/vision while wide awake, but I may have felt my father's presence shortly after his death. My sister was with me and we were going through his belongings. At precisely the same time we both felt something and looked at each other. It was a feeling of Dad very nearby, and a sense of his irritation at what we were doing. I have felt what appears to have been my mother's prescence on more than one occasion. The strongest was when I entered her room shortly after she had died and her body had been taken away. There was a smell of burning in the room, which apparently is quite common when the brain tries to interpret what it is receiving via 'psi' at times like these. I felt a brushing down the length of my right arm, and all the hairs stood on end.........and then I realised......she had touched my arm in the same way she had told me years before, that my first husband, of whom she was very fond, had brushed her arm when he 'came to say goodbye' shortly after he died. It was as if she was proving to me that she was there by duplicating that action. I will never forget that, and it makes me 'tingle' to this day when I think about it. My 'jury' is still out about whether I believe in an afterlife or not, or whether these things are in my own mind only. However, I would like to think there is something 'else' other than this mundane life, and there are definitely pointers to that. Regards, Glyn Reply | Forward

#1136

From: Barbara Baumgardner Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 8:38 am Subject: RE: An experiential post RE: Rappings threebears4u Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Glyn, You are right to go with your senses. It was probably exactly who you thought it was. I used to feel my Grandfather ( in spirit form) pat me on the back or shoulder 3 times just like he did when he was living. He was letting me know he was around --watching over me. I also used to feel the end of the bed go down ( as it does when someone sits on it ) when I lay down to sleep at night. I was never afraid. I would just smile---knowing it was one of my family. It was a comfort of sorts at the time. I am happy for you that you had these experiences. You will probably have others as well. Know in your heart that your family's love for you never dies, and this ( the stroking of your arm, and maybe the rapping too ) is probably some of the ways they are letting you know. Regards, Barbara Reply | Forward

#1021

From: "maliolana" Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 7:23 pm Subject: Re: An experiential post maliolana Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha Glynn, I have never had the knocks thing personally...but I have heard of others experiencing them... I always believed that I would...just somehow know... if anything ever happened to a love one of mine...telepahy or something like that... I figured my mother would drop by and tell me or something...When /if she died...Well I was definately bummed out on that one... First because my mother died...that was the biggy...but second...I had another nagging thought/feeling behind that... of how it also sucked... that I got no warning ...or message of any kind when she died!... I have had some very interesting precogs (to me anyway)...but I was really let down by my belief system that time...In fact...she never even visited me in a dream ...untill a few years ago...during a mid day lucid dream...in some altenate dimension...where she was still young and alive and I was an older self centered teen...It was so vivid and seemed so real... I cried my heart out...when I woke up... because the feeling I was left with ...that she was alive...was so real....I was upset... because I had wasted the time with her...and in the dream...I did not remember the 'me' now...I just acted like tomorrow would always come...and she would always be with me...and spent the time (entire dream)...complaining about my jerk uncle being late... and screwing me up!...She was so calm and understanding and beautiful...I had forgotten...I hope she comes again and I can remember me now and tell her how very much I loved and respected her(still do)...and get a big hug... Dawna Reply | Forward

#1053

From: "Glyn" Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 4:53 pm Subject: RE: Re: An experiential post gebega Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Dawna, I've just been writing about some experiences when I've felt the presence of my Mum and Dad since they died, but I have never actually seen them, not even in a dream; although something is at the edge of my consciousness...but I just can't remember. My sister is the one that 'sees things' :-). Those knockings, they could be just in the mind. Whatever it is, it seems to come down the female side of our family only. I've been trying to think of precog dreams I've had, and I can come up with one I had as a teenager at my first job, when I had 'deja-vu' after being told to sort out some books, and remembered a dream I had about it a few months previous. I've had one or two, including one where I dreamed of the winner of the Grand National (horse race), some years ago..but nothing really significant (and I didn't win a lot unfortunately :-). You're right, we never seem to appreciate our loved ones until it is too late do we; especially when kids. I had a scare recently when my husband was ill....no knockings though, so knew he wouldn't die really.....but death is sometimes not the worst thing that can happen to somebody. All is OK though, but now I live and love for today :-))) Cheers, Glyn Reply | Forward

#981

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:51 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > --- David Humphries wrote: > What's a maddog? Hi David, That's Ralph Burtons list for doing RV and for doing actual applications ( usually crime solving). Best. Bill ------------------------ Moderator's note: Hmmmn. Was that the guy I was so mean to back in June or so? I can't recall. There you go, I must be pretty nasty if I can trounce all over someone and then not even remember who they were. Maybe not. Name isn't familiar. I do recall coming back online though, reading four YEARS of stargate posts, and being so disgusted with the maybe 9 whole molecules of import in all that trivial and political crap I could hardly bear it. So I went to some other list that was offering targets, I was delighted -- but this guy'd had one target with zero feedback, followed by another really sucky target I can't even recall, I mean the slightest reading would better educate someone, to which he then added in brilliant feedback like what he looked at around the room, what meandered through his mind, and so forth. (!) Not that I didn't already feel like whacking my forehead against a wall as I'd OD'd on the sg archives -- but I honestly thought if I came back four years later all the basics people worked hard to make clear years ago would be known. I took it all out on this poor guy, who was so horrified at my commentary on his RV-intelligence that he deleted my four first posts and banned me from his list, LOL! I'd been actively "online" (sending something) for something like 4 hours at that point. I figured having posts deleted and being banned within hours of "coming out" again was a good sign that yup, RV must really need me. ROFL!..... I crack myself up. Anyway. I hope Ralph is a better tasker. Now I'd consider joining but I'm afraid he might be the guy I was so hard on, lol! Politics, politics... PJ Reply | Forward

#982

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:56 pm Subject: Re: Metaphore vs AOL docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, I'm back in the saddle lately doing some sessions, and the first thing I've noticed is that distored target information coming in that is not an analytic overlay..There is no time for the concious mind to do anything..or even morph the psi line. The stuff comes in morphed out of true..inot a metaphore..or just distored. For instance an overhanging attic is a bridge..I didn't analyze it into a brige it just was a bridge right away. If it morphed it did so in 200 mSeconds. Now it looked like the overhanging attic..so i think was on target and in a way was a bridge from one part of the roof to the other.. but it was a bridge over water to me right off. How do you handle that kind of information? Best Regards, Bill --------------------------------- Moderator's note: Well I swear at it, bitch about the session in my lab book, and kvetch to my viewer friends about my incompetence. I assume you were looking for a more constructive response though, LOL. ;-) I once got 'bridge' pretty clearly, that it was solid, stretched across an open area, that people stood on it, maybe even jumped off it (?). Turned out to be a *land* bridge -- over a cave, under a waterfall. I'd never even thought of that. If I'm going to do beancounting for my sessions it's wrong, but if my point is to better understand myself (which it is), it's useful learning. I think that kind of data is only a problem if you don't ever get good target contact for that target. Usually with increasing target contact, the data gets stronger and more specific or at least more copious, and various notes that may be AOL or may be symbolic or whatever, pan out in the end, in the midst of the overall session. When there is hardly any data, it's frustrating. But, that data (even if not true in the flat sense), if it's a feeling in you, can bring you better in target contact. IMO the goal of 98% of remote viewing data is to bring you into closer target contact. Pull that off and the remaining 2% will blow the mystery out of the water and be "more fully inside you" than 500 utilitarian sessions combined. This is probably politically incorrect but that's my feeling about it. I am starting to believe -- and talks with Joe and a couple others are encouraging this -- that ALL data is symbolic. It's merely that some of our symbols perfectly match in a 'literal' sense so we act like there's two different kinds of data, literal and symbolic. I think that's attachment (interpretation) we put as judgement on the data after the fact though. I think in reality it's all symbolic and I've been "repressing" good data because it wasn't literal enough for me. Now I seem to be going in the opposite direction entirely and somehow it holds a lot more for me, like I am really exploring my inner self. Now that I'm starting to open up to some of the "nested/unfolding" meaning inside what seemed like boring, generic notes in session, I'm beginning to think this is what separates the truly great viewers from everyone else, is this ability to take in "multi-level" and "depth-conceptual" symbolic data and learn to understand it. One piece of symbolic data, properly (intuitively) tuned, can bring paragraphs of contextual, relational information. It's BETTER info, not worse, it's just a matter of learning enough about oneself to grok. On the surface this kind of data often seems as stupid as dream logic. But it's like reading the Old Testament, the "intuitive leaps of insight" one can gain from certain things, that has little if anything to do with what is on the surface, yet somehow it sparks something greater and fuller off in us. You can't even really explain that to someone well if they haven't had it happen to them, if they haven't had a seemingly mundane piece of data "unfold in them" so they realize how deep and nested the energy can go -- IF one is willing to consider everything symbolic, and get as close to they can to the "feeling" of it as possible, and as open to the allegorical, metaphorical, personal-meaning of any given thing. Joe's been telling me this for seven bleeping years and I am FINALLY getting it. Just a little, just a taste of it. I feel like I've been wandering in the dark until now. I have an article somewhere I ought to post about 'raw data'. There is no such thing as 'raw data', that is a totally bogus concept you realize -- nothing gets to word form without being quite seriously processed. It's simply that some data can be processed MORE than other data. I have even on two occasions caught my mind interpreting and CHANGING data from one thing to another, and I am not talking about the analytical level, I'm talking about a level PRIOR to that, where it's like energy has to be interpreted first or something (in fact, although I'd done aspect/archetype work for years, that is the first time I started thinking maybe there was more than one part of me and they interpreted things differently -- that was in '98). It may be that bridge WAS the allegedly "raw data" for you in that session. Maybe 'bridge' has a variety of perfectly valid meanings that were encapsulated in that and it got handed right over -- just because it's AOL and certainly sounds like over-processed data, doesn't mean it can't be "symbolic", right? Is "bridge" more processed than "sadness"? They are both processed, they are both symbolic, and they are both personal interpretations. We've just been thinking about reality as if it is black and white, literal or symbolic, and any word that has something "physical" attached to it, somehow is considered more -- or more AOL! -- than other data. I believe the idea that we can get humans to 'stop processing' is pretty ludicrous other than the surface-obvious stuff that one can learn to relax somewhat. As long as human brains are involved, processing and symbology are going to be involved. Pretending that can be gotten around or 'trained out' of someone, as much of the RV world infers, is kind of laughable. The obvious solution is to simply learn how to work WITH our brains the way they normally operate, learn to understand ourselves. Well I might change my mind, and be equally opinionated in the opposite direction, 10 minutes from now. Everytime I think I understand something, I realize there's so much more I don't know, than do! So obviously it's all just opinion. But for the minute this is what is really drawing me. (As opposed to me sketching IT. ;-)) PJ Reply | Forward

#985

From: "Eva" Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 1:43 am Subject: Re: Metaphore vs AOL k9caninek9 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > --- In pjrv...ill Pendragon the first thing I've noticed is that distored target > information coming in that is not an analytic > overlay.. > There is no time for the concious mind to do > anything..or even morph the psi line. Bill, most analytic overlay does not occur in the conscious mind. It comes from somewhere in the unconscious and can't be analyzed in terms of time. I would suggest that the part of the mind that gets the info will also know the target long before you offically sit down to do the session. So how do you measure when the 'time' officially starts? The prob you describe is basically the same prob that everyone has in every session. How do you tell which aspect of an aol is the correct one? One obvious answer is practice more. -E Reply | Forward

#1003

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 2:15 am Subject: Re: Re: Metaphore vs AOL docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > .... One obvious answer is practice more. > -E Naw... I prefer to find the super secret short cut method that is being kept from us by the black intel groups and of course the aliens....:-) However, good point about the AOL. So its not really analytic at all ..its really an SOB... Subconcious Overlay Beforeanalysis. Bill Reply | Forward

#1008

From: "Scott Ellis" Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 10:25 pm Subject: Re: Metaphore vs AOL scottrver Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > Naw... I prefer to find the super secret short cut > method that is being kept from us by the black intel > groups and of course the aliens....:-) I agree! Also, I don't have enough time to do that many sessions. I may even try to task the ARV displacement issue directly to see what I get. Scott Reply | Forward

#995

From: greenmn900... Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:03 pm Subject: Re: Metaphore vs AOL greenmn900... Send Email Send Email Hi Bill, I get that kinda stuff a lot. From what you wrote, that part of the target was clearly "bridge-like". When that happens to me, I can sometimes clear it up later in the session. At some point later, when I'm not getting any new data, I'll go over what I already have and just very briefly consider each bit of information. If I can stay relaxed and not try to concentrate too much, often a piece of data, even a very clear image like your bridge, will change into what it really is. Or else it will sometimes at least give me a sense of where it lies in relation to other parts of the target, so I come to understand that it can't be a literal bridge. When everything works well, it can lead you to what the target actually is. You may find that this bit of symbology will stay fairly constant for you and any time there is any bridge-like element to a target, you will get this exact same bridge that you got in the session you described. I've got quite a few symbolic images that work like that for me. Best Regards, Don Reply | Forward

#1029

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 11:06 pm Subject: Re: Metaphore vs AOL docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Thanks Don, I'll keep tohse suggestion in mind. It would probably be a good idea to make a "glossary" of all those aols that appear over time.. and see how often they repeat. I had a submarine for an alligator..and riveted metal ( metal with lines of bolts for the skin of the gator.) A submarine could come up for any aquatic animal.. Also I've noted that when Ii want to put down a lot of arrows in the ideogram it means lots of motion...in different directions. Wiggling...etc. Best Wishes Bill Reply | Forward

#975

From: Rocheleh Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:58 pm Subject: Re: The future of this list. rochelehhakt... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 I wasn't near my e-mail client for the most part of the previous week... and I just can't catch up. Whatever I do, there are always 100+ unread messages only in my RV folder. So, that's one of the reasons I didn't post anything. But since it's late and I should sleep but I don't feel like, I might as well just write away about why I haven't done anything psi-related in the past week. There are multiple reasons. Sure, I haven't had time - but then again, I *never* do. Last week wasn't 'special' or anything like that, only in a sense that I was away from my e-mail. And even that didn't mean I practiced Well... this is an experiential list, right, so no one will mind if I tell. Though I don't recall any reactions when I did so before - but I'm rather positive it's because I'm new, I don't know anybody in person, and I've posted very little. That *should* change over time. (And this is one place to start. ) It's probably more than a week ago now... when I 'discovered' gotpsi for me, I've come across it multiple times before, but never registered. How wrong I was. The location test is my favourite, though I've only done a couple runs this far. Overall, I'd done *very few* runs on gotpsi, which is because I finally realized I could get past psi missing. That sounds weird, right? Let me elaborate. In the past, I usually had a lot of psi missing. (With other software, my own little setups and so on.) And it was like this: whenever I wanted positive results, I'd get negative ones. (Tart's argument about statistically naive individuals doesn't come into play here; I know this much statistics, maybe even a bit more. And by two more semesters, I should know everything a general psychologist should...) Then, I'd concentrate on getting negative results; which ended up in positive results. And I'd be in constant turmoil over the whole thing, which one to concentrate on. The negative gave positive results, but I thought I shouldn't be set up like that, because that would indicate serious problems with my relation to psi. But concentrating on the positive'd still give me large psi missing in the short term; plus fear'd surface after a few runs (of whatever) and I'd be highly upset. Gevaaalt! Well then, shortly after moving, I decided to settle this, if not once and for all, but at least for the time being. I sat down in front of... ow, I don't even recall which one "it" was. Some sort of psi software thing, maybe even online. I'd do it. I'd get upset (predictable). But I wouldn't stop there. I just wouldn't stop till... till what? I guessed I'd know when I was done. I did just like that, and after a time that seemed like eternities and felt like hell, I felt that my fear has definitely receded - not vanished, mind you, but brought to a level that wouldn't hinder my growth for quite some time. Or so I thought, but the world is complicated... After this, I started RV again. Darn, I have to start it "again" every second session! No wonder I'm still not done with at least 20. (And these are not full sessions with all stages, mind you.) I did it and felt comfortable. It even seemed boring at points. Then, after a couple sessions, I tried gotpsi. I haven't done too many runs yet (I haven't even tried out some), some might even be seen on the highscores (I use Rocheleh there as well). And then I stopped with that, too. Why? At that point, it was causing me distress. I haven't realized why, but now I have a guess. It's because now when I was concentrating on positive results, I got positive results, not vice versa. Just all of a sudden. (Well, I went through seven hells to reach this, but that doesn't mean it was not a sudden change.) The part that freaked me out is that when I finally persuaded myself to try the classic, five-card guessing test. I hate five-card guessing tests, even though I guess this was the first time I tried one out, I was so opposed to the idea. Finding out a card? Just guessing? And doing this a gazillion times to get decent results? Aw, come on! Actually, there's not much of a difference between this and say, mentally "pushing" a line from red to green or whatever experiments have you. On the hardware level, they might be the same. I know that, I knew that even before, but the idea of Rhine cards - or whatever sort of cards - seemed annoying to me. Boring, and annoying. I felt sure I wouldn't be able to do that. I never considered what'd happen if I did. So, I decided to give it a try. An other significant motive: while I was all-happy about my nice results, a friend also told me he'd tried it out and scored X to Y (I won't tell because then you could see from the highscore... and I haven't asked him if that's all right), and how nice that was - now I became like the raging bull. Come on, Rachel, if he could do X to Y, then you could do X^2 to Y or something. I tried it. I scored 160 to 1. I was simply... dumbfounded. Me?! This?! No frickin' way! Okay. When I sit down and think it over, I'm almost completely sure (and this is a guess based on my average performance in this and others) that I wouldn't do that every time I sat down in front of the computer. I'm not Uri Geller or whoever. But after doing yes, a gazillion of these things, I'd get very nicely significant results. They wouldn't be breathtaking. But they'd satisfy my statistics teacher, more than I could with a decent psychological experiment, you know what I'm saying. It worked the way I wanted it to, not *opposite*. Whether or not that matters statistically (it doesn't :) ), it mattered to me psychologically. Before, I felt like almost as if I were cursed or something. And now, it works *according to my will*?! I just couldn't absorb this. A part of me desperately wants to give up control to something/body else. Desperately wants psi to work not under my control at all; because that'd mean I have responsibility. And this part of me doesn't want the responsibility. Even if it's in things like crap, RNG output or anything. And this part manifested. Odd things started happening around me, my VCR went nuts, two computers went nuts, my brother went nuts (but that's a corollary of the former ~:) )... I stopped doing any sort of deliberate psi for over a week now. Life returned to seemingly normal. (Normal and boring, right?) I felt like I cooled down somewhat, but something was still missing before I could start again. I guess it was this mail :) More seriously, the thing missing was the making explicit of my dynamics that was behind all this. Gee... I might've just accomplished that. I don't know yet, maybe after some sleep I could make it more clear. But this felt useful to me. Now as for you?! Well, it'll probably be useful for PJ because she said she'd like more and more and more experiential posts. This is as experiential as I got in the past weeks, and it's rather dense in places. As for the rest of you... I honestly dunno. This reads like something one'd write in a magickal diary and lock the hell up somewhere. And I'm going to send it to a list where I don't know anybody. Why? Because someone asked for "experiential posts". Gee, PJ, you've got persuasion :) (If I were the government, I'd employ you at once... and read that as absolutely positive, even if it makes you dead by morning ;) ) But if you hadn't asked, I probably wouldn't have written a word, and this would've stayed implicit in my mind. My diaries are mostly technical notes, details not to forget about. I can't ramble on and on unless I'm writing to somebody, the poor one/s... This time you were the sufferers. I'll really finish now, give thanks to your favourite deities. But would please someone *reply*, not like the last time? Rachel (Oy vaavoy....I am worried I might be an RV Drama Queen... Ladies and Gentlemen, Duck and Cover!) ---------------------------- Moderator's note: I have sessions where I've written, ED > Worried I am off on Mars or something. ED > You're a drama queen! GET OVER IT! LOL! Well at least I'm hard on myself, too. ;-) PJ

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