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pjrv : Messages : 713-733 of 4038
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#713

From: "Glyn" Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 4:54 am Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing gebega Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Pru and all, Nice to hear from you :-). There has been a lot of talk about RV training lately, and unfortunately, some acrimony on another list. It is a crying shame as I really thought the RV bully-boys were gone with the dinosaurs. Aggressive behaviour stifles progress, as it stops valuable input from free-thinkers who are non-confrontational;.. I hope it is not intentional. Still, there are other places to discuss 'heretical' things without running the risk of getting one's head bitten off.. I hope :-)). Enough of that though............Who is the best trainer, what is the best method, is there any advantage in having 'live' versus 'email' training, what is the value of constant practice, is innate talent necessary etc etc?? Oh those endless questions, for which everyone has a different answer :-). I'll contribute my thoughts to the pool :-) I have now been RVing for about 4 years. I have had 'one to one' training in ERV, and in the HRVG method (although both were necessarily conducted by email); I would have liked to have been at your course in London if I could have made it. Quite frankly I would attend all the classes from the 'main players' if I had the time and financial resources.......but would it really do me any good ?? The learning of a structured method was a revelation for me. Whether it is totally necessary when one becomes more advanced I do not know (I haven't got to that point, and may never :-)), but it provides someone like me a good tool to work with as I definitely needed the discipline. I feel you are absolutely right about 'recognition' Pru. Different people say that 'practice practice practice' is the key to getting better at RV. I agree, but there is a proviso......IMO no amount of practice will help me to that level of 'recognition' you talk about if I do not specifically plan for it. To be able to recognise and separate the real psi input (wheat) from the imaginative/associative (chaff) is the holy grail of RV that we all desire.........however IMO the key is to start to recognise those good impressions *as they happen*, not just afterwards at feedback time. That takes practice yes, but with a specific aim I think....... not just the churning out thousands of sessions looking for correlations when it's too late. There may be progress doing it that way, yes, but slow I think. Thoughts on that anyone...and any ideas? Natural talent....well IMO it goes without saying that like in any area of life, if you persist you can develop a skill to the limits of your potential, but to exceed that.......now that is art :-)) Kind regards, Glyn Reply | Forward

#725

From: Richard Krankoski Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 7:52 pm Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing Rich_crv Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Interesting thoughts. I am pondering the practice, practice, practice thing. It is my impression that Pru has been having a greater success rate at "good" RVers in a relatively shorter time period..... months vs years. Is this because these people "got the message" and did a whoel lot of practice from the get go, or is there somehow a better talent pool attracted to Pru, or is it the methodology? Or ?????? One thought is that conservatives and fundamental skeptics ( such as I) would tend to gravitate toward more conservative, credentialed instructors and the talent level pool would be lower. I'm not sure I understand this analogy to breathing. It seems no different from the natural talent theory. Rich Reply | Forward

#730

From: "Eva" Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 3:37 am Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing k9caninek9 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 LOL, you might be surprised. THere are quite a number of conservative people in TDS. THere is a lot going on at TDS and it's the only place that does not make their profits from teaching. I think there are a number of reasons that TDS does a good job of recruiting viewers. First, the main emphasis IS on training viewers, not on making money from training. By keeping the training price low, you can obtain students that wouldn't have been able to go otherwise. THen TDS has a strong after training program for those who are willing to commit the time. So you aren't left kind of in the cold to practice on your own and deal with your own problems. And yes, by doing a lot of sessions yes you do get better a lot faster. I think time frames like 6 months to 2 years have been bandied about by HRVG and former Stargaters as some of the time frames to get people operational. About the same occurs for TDS. Also nice is to have people to help you are available when you need them. ALso with TDS you have the potential to actually do something with your work and make a future with it. That will attract people as well. As far as conservatives being for some reason a lesser talent pool, I am not sure that assumption is correct. First of all, if you were REALLY conservative, you would not be taking an rv course in the first place. LOL! And besides that, I have just seen no evidence of it. There are good viewers of a great variety of types. I think maybe it just helps to be well grounded, have the discipline to practice, and be capable of a decent amount of introspection. As far as the breathing analogy, yes it is basically the same thing as the natural talent theory except that when you think of it, breathing is not a 'talent.' Unless you are extremely damaged, you can do it without having any 'talent.' It's a natural part of you. If you look at the terminology, calling something a 'natural talent' is in some ways contradictory. If it's so natural, why do you need talent? You won't see me going around and telling people I have natural digestive talent and natural breathing talent and natural eye blinking talent right? Those things are too natural to be generally considered a talent. -E --- In pjrv...ichard Krankoski One thought is that conservatives and fundamental skeptics ( such as I) would > tend to gravitate toward more conservative, credentialed instructors and the > talent level pool would be lower. Reply | Forward

#733

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 3:35 am Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Dear Richard I really don't know the answer to your question, because I never took lessons from Paul or Lyn.When I was there I had my best session first.. The target was an erupting volcano and that's exactly what I sketched..that was before any practice ensued. So I dont' think practice has much to do with it personally. Also, Pru is not seeking students for profit. She doesn't make much profit on teaching if any. Her company is successful because of the applications she does. I suspect she does invite people who are very interested, or have some proven talent. I don't really know how she chooses..and usually her classes are by invitation. But I had my best RV there right off the bat so whatever talent I had had not shown up completely until then. But people that go to Lyn pay 1000 and for Paul I think it is more so it would seem to me they must be quite serious also..or why pay that kind of money? Personally, I think you ought to go and find out for yoursefl. Best Regards, Bill >--- Richard Krankoski wrote: > Is this > because these people "got > the message" and did a whoel lot of practice from > the get go, or is there > somehow a better talent pool attracted to Pru, or is > it the methodology? Or > ?????? Reply | Forward

#732

From: Timelord2029... Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:11 am Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing psitrooper24 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Rich, Excellent Questions :) From what i witnessed first hand i would eliminate the practice part as i think apart from myself, another guy and Pru's two pro's everyone else who attended pru's UK class had never RVed in thier life. So i would say the protocol played a huge part plus the relaxing fun atmosphere as well. They came primarily from consevarative profesional backgrounds, (quite a few qualified Hypnotherapists), Professional Healers - (and these guys did really well) a pro pilot, Teachers, Financial analysts, and IT Analysts like myself. All were open minded and asked critical questions all the time. Non were fazed by pru's interests in ET's or stuff like that. They wanted to see if they could RV and non were disapointed. Naturally some did better than others and i would say in IMO, and it just an opinion, that the "Healers/Hypnotherapists" seemed to shine that bit brighter. and showed some remarkable RV talent. I dont know why but that was what i observed over the 3 day period. Iam sure there is an answer for this somewhere. Peace, Tunde pjrv : Messages : 711-745 of 4038
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#711

From: "Prudence Calabrese" Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 9:20 pm Subject: talent and music and sports and breathing largeruniverse Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Oh man, I haven't contributed anything in a long while, thanks to a backlog of countless emails and too many business trips. But in reading the recent posts, and while waiting for my own copy of Joe's new book to arrive, I've been mentally revisiting the old question of Talent vs Training. Everyone's heard the old chestnuts about RV ability being like music or sports - everyone has some degree of ability but some are more talented than others naturally, and practice makes more perfect. I used to think that, too. But now I think it's like breathing, it's an absolutely essential part of our being, and we do it all the time without being consciously aware, and growing the awareness of your breath, of your intuition, is what we do when we 'practice' or really what I should say is examine the efforts and output of our practice. So it becomes recognition that determines the usefullness of our output, and not innate talent, and not even repitition of skill (though that can help aid recognition). Just a sorry small thought from a jetlagged chick in So Cal. Reply | Forward

#712

From: "Eva" Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 2:42 am Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing k9caninek9 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 You may want to check your analogy. Some people have bigger and more efficient lungs, LOL! Some people may have better recognition skills than others as well. In the end, the psi has to come through the body and all things that come through the body as far as I can think of are subject to variations in the ability of the body in question. I think creativity also is a natural part of us, yet some are more creative than others. Yes, it can be taught, but I think some will always just be better. It also maybe that we all are sapping such a small part of our potential to start with that the practice factor my override a lot of the other issues. THere are a lot of strong and somewhat divergent opinions out there about the subject, but I have yet to see a single piece of scientific evidence either way. Perhaps some appear to be better at psi because they are more familiar with their own mental processes. If so, it would still indicate differences in ability. How much of it can be taught? I am sure you have all known people that no matter how hard you or they tried, they were just not the introspective type. We must also consider that out of all the people in the world, only a small percentage will show any interest in learning rv in the first place. We are already vastly preselected to be of a certain personality type. Also, out of all those who begin training, only a small percentage will practice so hard and long as to become much better. MOre preselection. And those who drop out are probably more likely to be those who are not doing as well. And of course if all people were fundamentally equal in their psi ability, then the old sayings that psi has genetic links would be contradictory. Anyway, there's so many factors and my brain is tired. I think I'll just ship off to bed instead! -E > --- In pjrv...Prudence Calabrese" But now I think it's like breathing, it's an absolutely essential part of our being, > and we do it all the time without being consciously aware, and growing the > awareness of your breath, of your intuition, is what we do when we 'practice' > or really what I should say is examine the efforts and output of our practice. > So it becomes recognition that determines the usefullness of our output, and > not innate talent, and not even repitition of skill (though that can help aid > recognition). Reply | Forward

#714

From: "Prudence Calabrese" Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 9:02 am Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing largeruniverse Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 --- In pjrv...Eva" You may want to check your analogy. Some people have bigger and more > efficient lungs, LOL! Some people may have better recognition skills > than others as well. [snip] I guess the point I was trying to make (and didn't, LOL!) was that it's something that we always do, whether we are aware of it or not; it's not something we do after getting some lessons and practice but not much before except in ways that are sporadic (singing, dancing, playing a sport). We literally never stop "remote viewing" (using the common usage here) though we aren't aware of what we are tapping into at any given moment. And so it's a much deeper part of who we are, rather than a set of skills we can gain with some of us having a natural proclivity to the abilities. You bring up some interesting points about introspection and creativity and genetics. It's funny, there's something I want to add to all of this, and I know I'm still not getting across what I'm sensing. It's all on the pre-verbal level still, dammit. Reply | Forward

#726

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 10:21 pm Subject: Re: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Pru, Let me take a stab at what you said means to me..G Physical talent in music or sports or even academics is a function at least partially of ones genetic potential....whereas we are all potentially UNLIMITED in our psi which is not limited by genetics. It is pre-genetics and post-genetics. Given that nevertheless relatively few people get anywhere near this potential. In fact no one does. But the ones that come the closest.usually seem to display psychic talents early in life and cultivated them. It seems you feel there are ways to catch up and they have something to do with attention to your own intuition.. I hope you can draw that out a little more..Sounds important..G Best Wishes, Bill Reply | Forward

#731

From: "Eva" Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 2:56 am Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing k9caninek9 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Actually, I think we and most people agree on the general gist of it. Yes, I agree psi is a natural aspect of ourselves and does not derive from stages and methods from former military guys. The stages and methods are just designed to facilitate the process (hopefully). It kind of reminds me of the nature vs nurture debates. Most agree there is a natural aspect and a learned aspect to rv and psi, but how much does each aspect influence the outcome. THat is where the debate lies. -E --- In pjrv...Prudence Calabrese" It's funny, there's something I want to add to all of > this, and I know I'm still not getting across what I'm sensing. > It's all on the pre-verbal level still, dammit. Reply | Forward

#718

From: "Viv*" Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 1:54 pm Subject: Re: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing eclecticviv Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 On 5 Oct 2002 at 7:42, Eva wrote: > the end, the psi has to come through the body and all > things that come through the body as far as I can think > of are subject to variations in the ability of the body > in question. Viv replies: Good point Evelyn. For interpreting, subconscious information on a conscious level, what becomes most comprehensible will relate most, to the individuals personal experiences. This is also what may contribute to an individuals, psi skills, in either a specialized, and or general way . IMO, a person can enhance their psi skills by reading and or taking classes, in basic art and literature theory. Translating "sub" info, into a written and sketched session is frequently in terms of the finer, or hidden components, that contribute to an image. Or in the case of descriptors, the dictionary definitions of a word, along with it's emotional association, and the subconscious definitions, (which can be quite different from the conscious definition). I must add though, most who have an interest in RV and or paranormal subjects, also seem to have strong interests, in some aspects of the arts. Eve wrote: I think creativity also is a natural part > of us, yet some are more creative than others. Viv replies: This is true, with the addition that, some who seem more creative then other's are usually more socially expressive with their "art", (RV or otherwise) while some who may who seem not very creative, express their creativity just the same, in a more private circumstance. All have the potential for being very creative. Personal experience and opportunity, plus other factors, will make the difference. Eve wrote: > It also maybe that we all are sapping such a small part > of our potential to start with that the practice factor > my override a lot of the other issues. THere are a lot > of strong and somewhat divergent opinions out there > about the subject, but I have yet to see a single piece > of scientific evidence either way. Perhaps some appear > to be better at psi because they are more familiar with > their own mental processes. If so, it would still > indicate differences in ability. How much of it can be > taught? Viv replies: IMO, all, can be taught or self learned, (both is better). An analogy, would be that of learning the "ABC's", and learning how to read. How far can one go with practice? Once the ABC's, or RV protocol are learned/memorized, then comes the actual reading/viewing, and comprehension, of the above process. In short, we start out with, "Dick and Jane, see Spot run", to Tipler's, "Recall that we can observe only what exists at our own level of implementation or higher; the lower levels are invisible to us, although they are more basic levels of being, than our own level", from, "The Physics of Immortality". Each individual evaluates through personal belief systems, and decides, "how high the sky". Eve wrote: > all the people in the world, only a small percentage > will show any interest in learning rv in the first > place. We are already vastly preselected to be of a > certain personality type. Also, out of all those who > begin training, only a small percentage will practice > so hard and long as to become much better. MOre > preselection. And those who drop out are probably more > likely to be those who are not doing as well. > > And of course if all people were fundamentally equal in > their psi ability, then the old sayings that psi has > genetic links would be contradictory. Anyway, there's so many factors ... -E Viv replies: Again, I agree to a point. There are many factors known and unknown that have an influence on the final outcome of how far an individual may go in developing psi skills. Psi has genetic links, but it may not be as important, as some might think. I think it's a matter of time, the abilities of a few will become commonplace to most, if not all, like learning the alphabet and how to read, written material. Viv* "I celebrate myself and sing myself, for every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you." ~ Walt Whitman 1819-1892~ Reply | Forward

#715

From: "scottrver" Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 10:52 am Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing scottrver Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 I guess no one really knows. But, I believe that what pre/post testing has been done has shown that people essentially do not improve their hit rate over time although the quality of their data might improve. Scott Reply | Forward

#716

From: richard coulombe Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 12:58 pm Subject: Re: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing rcoulombe32 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 I think that our abiliyty is unlimited as long as you don't set a certain limt on your ability/Gift. Practice and open your mind to expand your experieance and your ability seems to grow. give it a try. Thanks Rich C. scottrver wrote:I guess no one really knows. But, I believe that what pre/post testing has been done has shown that people essentially do not improve their hit rate over time although the quality of their data might improve. Scott Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ RV Oasis [pjrv] Practical Psi with PJ Gaenir Subscribe: pjrv-subscribe...oups.com Unsubscribe: pjrv-unsubscribe...oups.com Visit Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/ Firedocs RV: http://www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/ Owner/Moderator: Email to PJ at pj...s.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Forward

#741

From: SValkyre... Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 5:34 pm Subject: Re: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing svalkyre Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Namaste, dear ones, I use namaste in greeting from the inner sacred part of my being which honors the sacred part of each of you. -- However we each state or believe it, we have a sacred part that is the "me" part of our makeup. I'm not sure how to put this, but I feel it is very important that I acknowledge that there is a part of me that I do not have the first idea on how to analyze. It is just naturally part of the universal truths around me. Some of us are really naturally good at translating or interpreting the information (the "truths") we receive by psi or any type of rv. Some of the things I tell people that I "hear" or "see" or "sense" make absolutely NO sense to me. However, if I go ahead and state it in the most basic terms, very often the person I am "reading" for understands it perfectly. I have found after hundreds of readings that the more I try to interpret the information for the other person, rather than just say what I saw or heard, the more errors I produce by using my own logic. Logic does not have a lot to do with the right brain, and the right brain is most often the receptor for this type of information. I get very clear information, in the form of "dreams" and "visions", but sometimes the meaning of the information is unclear for a long time. Practice is essential. I started my career as a psychic reader doing back to back 15 minute readings at "psychic fairs". On a given weekend, I would give 3 or 4 readings an hour for 8 hours, with a one hour break for lunch. It was amazing how often all of the readings for that day would end up having a "theme" -- maybe all of the people were really there to talk about writing. The theme would be woven through a large percentage of the readings for that day, and would have a certain personal significance for Me -- as if my personal guidance pulled those people to me and caused a thread to run through the readings to tell me something. I have spoken to other readers who had similar experiences. What I found was that after a whole bunch of readings, I was no longer in contact with my logical brain -- then I would have to ground Very Strongly, since I had a lot of left-brain activities, such as driving home, to accomplish. I feel each of us has gifts and talents in most areas which remain undeveloped, underutilized, because we did not reinforce the small abilities we have. Most of us have been taught Not to be psychic in our American culture -- gypsy card readers and crystal balls and witches and evil were all lumped together as "wrong". I guess I have ended up blithering, but somehow I want to say that we must "exercise" our abilities to develop what is naturally there -- nurture the flame or the seed, protect if from outside influences which would destroy it. Just wanted to put in my two cents worth, since I am cherishing the threads the group is weaving into a rich tapestry at present! Thanks to all of you! Love, light, strength and joy, Possums on the porch, dragonflies on the car, squirrels chittering at the dog from way up the pine tree, Deni Silver Valkyre May we all have light sufficient for our path, and may some light the path for others. Reply | Forward

#745

From: joan003...nk.net Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 9:24 am Subject: Re: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing joanie003 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 << I use namaste in greeting from the inner sacred part of my being which honors the sacred part of each of you.>> Amen and Namaste Deni, << Some of us are really naturally good at translating or interpreting the information (the "truths") we receive by psi or any type of rv. Some of the things I tell people that I "hear" or "see" or "sense" make absolutely NO sense to me. However, if I go ahead and state it in the most basic terms, very often the person I am "reading" for understands it perfectly. I have found after hundreds of readings that the more I try to interpret the information for the other person, rather than just say what I saw or heard, the more errors I produce by using my own logic. Logic does not have a lot to do with the right brain, and the right brain is most often the receptor for this type of information. I get very clear information, in the form of "dreams" and "visions", but sometimes the meaning of the information is unclear for a long time. >> I love what you wrote! In my experience, I've found in large part, we don't even need to understand the meaning of dreams...that they by their (our) genius working all by their lonesome selves and without our need to analyze, seem to just do the work they are meant to... There is is it seems much healing and transformational work and problem solving that so naturally occurs. I suppose this frees us up to be aware and "whole" as we walk in our waking world. It seems to be almost to be a metaphor for "making the Heaven on Earth." Every practice that I've resonated with although transcendent, ALSO GROUNDS things in the waking 3D Earth world attention. All life may be suffering as the Buddhists acknowledge, but it's still great to have this GIFT of the HUMAN experience, I suppose as the pagans and Christians acknowledge! In the Spirit, Joanie Reply | Forward

#717

From: "PJ Gaenir" Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 1:27 pm Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing dennanm Offline Offline Send Email Send Email I have a different theory which covers both alternatives I guess. My beliefs are subject to change at a moment's notice. Every time I think I know what I'm talking about I find out I was an idiot and my point of view changes. So, be warned. ;-) I believe that psi is innate in humanity, and our moment to moment existence depends on and utilizes it. I believe that precognition and telepathy and PK are literally a way of life and are part of our creating (literally, like a dream) the reality we experience. I believe that we are oblivious to it as part of the 'agreements' we took on while growing up in this reality... and that a deep rooted discomfort related to psi is the psychological end result. I believe most everybody thinks they don't have any such thing, but that without it, we would all be 'nearly omniscient' at any moment, as that is our capability, limited only by our beliefs and fears. As far as 'who has talent' and 'does RV require talent', I believe RV does, but that all humans have it. I take seriously the research, which says that only 1/2 of 1% of the population, even with years of practice, even with training, is capable of becoming a 'world-class remote viewer' along the caliber of McMoneagle. And, that no amount of training or RV practice will 'give' that level of ability to someone who didn't walk in the door to RV with it. BUT, before that sounds like it excludes ordinary mortals... Because I REFUSE to believe anything that suggests there are limits to what is 'possible'; I say, there are more options than mere 'RV' training. Shamanic training does not attempt to teach people how to visualize moving between realities and then writing it down in a certain format as "what it's about". Focusing on how to write it down would strike any serious shaman as the funniest (and stupidest) thing on earth. Most shamanic traditions focus on teaching people to pay attention to how their mind operates, to have control of their own mind and body, to become immensely aware of their own normal reality, and to become aware of and able to change their fundamental belief systems. I believe the REASON for views about talent seeming contradictory (both sides are right IMO) is that in reality, it has nothing whatsoever to do with psi talent. I know. It sounds crazy to say that RV could have nothing to do with psi, when it is entirely about psi functioning. :-) What I mean is, since I believe everybody's got talent as part of our innate makeup, for me there is really no point in my addressing that as part of any debate. I believe that 99.99% of it is psychology. And while we DO have certain things we've had most of our life and are unlikely to change, that is true, I believe most anything in psychology can be addressed by the individual and eventually changed. RV to me is not an allegory like "if you weren't born a Mozart you can never become one" -- to me, that is exclusionary thinking. I believe that DNA changes constantly in subtle ways and that genetically we all have a VAST repository to draw from, to make dominant or not within ourself. RV to me is more like "some people are salesmen, or managers, and some are not. But anybody is capable of developing those capabilities, and even an enjoyment of them, if they so choose." (However, if a person is really lacking intelligence, or is a tyrant, or is so pathologically shy they can't so much as order from a menu, then this is more development and self-change than is likely to happen without more work than is reasonable, so they might not want to bother.) I believe psychology is behind what I've previously called -- and what I noticed Eva called -- the "self-selection" process of those who pursue RV to begin with; I believe psychology is behind the "way" a person approaches RV (the mindset, the ability to deal with success and failure, the lack of closure, the control of AOL, etc. etc. etc.); I believe psychology is behind the way a person "pursues" RV (whether they practice, how often, how intensely, how intelligently, and so forth); I believe psychology is profoundly responsible for how well a person deals with their innate fear of psi, as well as how well they deal with the experience of psi, and the way they deal with the necessity for altering core psychological constructs/belief systems (without which I believe consistent, high-level skill (a) doesn't happen, and (b) psychological problems DO); I believe psychology is definitely responsible for the mental and emotional balance people do or don't have (more the latter in this field IMO, but I think that is a side-effect of RV not being approached in a belief-systems/control-of-self manner first); So, IMO, the entire process is wholly dependent from start to finish, from novice to expert, in every aspect, on psychology. As a result, I consider all useful training self-training and all accomplishment wholly individual. The question of, is RV dependent on psi talent -- well sheesh, of course, it is psi functioning. But the "unspoken" question in that is "does this mean that only a few lucky people born with it can do it?" is what is really worth addressing. I say, a few lucky people due to the combination of genetic choices their consciousness has made and their upbringing and their experiences, do have a marked advantage. That is not really a debate point, that is obvious. However, that is only because their *psychology* has been affected by those things. I believe that most anybody -- who doesn't have profound, obvious psychological problems with some of the core requirements of course -- can deliberately change their belief systems, their own psychology. This isn't necessarily easy. This isn't necessarily fast. This can be suggested in nature but cannot be 'taught' in detail. The number of people able to stick with RV - done properly, done regularly, done despite difficulties, done for an extended period of time, and done with concurrent "psychological" development -- is very small, and that from a very small self-selected pool to begin with. So when someone says, that "Only a tiny % of the population can remote view well, let alone great," I'd say, "That is true." But not because most of us are inherently, genetically cursed with a lack of talent.... simply because most of us have not -- yet -- developed the psychology that will help us be consistently good. We're works in progress. PJ Reply | Forward

#719

From: richard coulombe Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 1:50 pm Subject: Re: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing rcoulombe32 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 I am in total agreement with Pj's idea, not because I like to kiss butt, but,LOL I like to try and keep it simple, Practice/good outlook/pychology,etc. Thanks PJ for your insight, I appreciate. Rich C. --------------------- Moderator's note: LOL. Last time I checked, more people disagreed with me than agreed. :-) And those who agreed only did so on their own terms anyway. How am I supposed to take over the world with people like this around? :-) PJ Reply | Forward

#729

From: "Eva" Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 2:57 am Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing k9caninek9 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 I so often hear that tests have been done, but yet I never seen the tests. Where are they? (not that I am saying I have an opinion either way, just that I want to see more data on it) -E >--- In pjrv...scottrver" I guess no one really knows. But, I believe that what pre/post > testing has been done has shown that people essentially do not improve > their hit rate over time although the quality of their data might improve. ------------------- Moderator's note: Stuff related to this done years ago, will be published sometime next year (rumor has it!). -- PJ Reply | Forward

#734

From: "scottrver" Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 11:31 am Subject: Testing - talent and music and sports and breathing scottrver Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi E, The correlation between initial RV hit rate and RV potential over time is stated in Joe McMoneagle's Remote Viewing Secrets and I've heard it from CSL scientists. I can only assume the tests were done at SRI and CSL. They also make the claim that structured forms of RV (CRV and derivatives) have not been shown to be more effective than meditative ERV. I am positive this claim would not be made by these people without testing. While I have not seen their data, I have no doubt as to their veracity and having had several conversations with some of the scientists - I assure you these people are amazingly thorough. What needs to happen in order for any methodology to make claims is testing. Unfortunately, testing takes time, costs money, and needs to be well designed. The various RV schools probably don't have those kind of resources as their students probably wouldn't want to pay for it. Yet, without testing all of their claims are subjective. I have no idea how this can ever be resolved. Scott >--- In pjrv...Eva" I so often hear that tests have been done, but yet I never seen the > tests. Where are they? (not that I am saying I have an opinion > either way, just that I want to see more data on it) Reply | Forward

#721

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 3:46 pm Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Pru, Nice to have you back from the Brits ..please expand on how one becomes aware of the inutition.in your experience. I'm not at all sure practice by itself is the answer. You can hit a golf ball the wrong way 10,000 times and it won't help your game much at all. I suspect RV is like that also. Best Wishes, Bill Reply | Forward

#722

From: "Prudence Calabrese" Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 4:43 pm Subject: Re: talent and music and sports and breathing largeruniverse Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hiya Bill! I don't think that practice, per se, gets you much of anywhere if all you do is a pile of sessions, one after the other, letting them build up, giving a superficial glance at the disclosure and your data. I think the only way to achieve understanding is to do a pile of sessions and then spend as much time on self analysis as you did in the viewing itself, maybe even more time. You should take each single word you use in a session and, in a journal, notate why you chose that language. Do the same with your sketches. Over time you will notice your own personal (self- imposed) barriers and you'll notice your own skewed opinion of the universe. Even when done double-blind (as all good practice sessions are), no session is objective. Each piece of data is littered with your ideas of what reality should be like. Introspection is the only way to any kind of enlightenment, RV or otherwise. Also, it's helpful to keep an intuitive journal with you, and when you precog something or have a deja vu moment, or just KNOW something, whatever, write it down, honor it. Know what else I do? I regularly fill in stuff in sessions post-disclosure that I didn't write down at the time but I sensed while viewing. Why beat myself up for not writing it down? It seems much more helpful to write it down then, and honor the intuition. It seems to keep the flow happening, keep your subconsious mind happy that you are recognizing the language it throws at you. Whenever you have a question - where are my keys? where does this store keep the toothpaste? - use your intuition first, and ask questions later. The more you rely on intuition FIRST, as the first resort and not in retrospect, the more it makes itself known to you and the more you recognize it when it happens, like breathing, every moment, every day. I'll write more on this later, I have a passion on this subject. (just not a lot of time at the moment, arrrgghhh!)

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