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Archivist: Palyne PJ Gaenir (PJRV, Palyne, Firedocs RV, TKR and the Dojo Psi.)



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pjrv : Messages : 814-814 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/814?)
22:29:03
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#814

From: "PJ Gaenir" Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:38 am Subject: RV Drama Queens dennanm Offline Offline Send Email Send Email I am getting a lot of interesting feedback about my less-than-gentle editorial "RV Drama Queens" on Firedocs. http://www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/RVEditorials-001.cfm That's me. Timid and unopinionated. I've decided some of the comments are so good I'm going to make a follow up article that will contain excerpts from what people have sent (private-no names of course) making points I didn't, perhaps should have, or left out, or that contradict something I said in a way worth hearing and considering as an alternative view. It also inspired me to continue working on editorials I've begun and not finished, as my unwillingness to 'get into details' about secondary issues in that one, of course brought a lot of comments about how I should have got into them. :-) (E.g, tasking ethics.) If anyone on this list (I've heard from a few of you) wants to read and comment, I am interested in feedback from practicing viewers or thoughtful readers. PEM or onlist, I don't care. Regards, PJ pjrv : Messages : 815-872 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/815?)
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#815

From: "Sharon Webb" Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:22 am Subject: Re: RV Drama Queens sharwebb_30512 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Palyne, I read your article, and it was a good one. I'd like to comment on this: > "I recently read on a public list a well-written, thoughtful experience from a woman who volunteered to do a 'real life' session frontloaded as a 'human target'. She says she is somewhat a beginner. She says she volunteered because she figured she 'ought to get one' (operational viewing) 'under her belt'. > "The target was two teenage girls who had disappeared some time previously. I don't know the tasking as she didn't say. I don't know if it was current status of the girls, or 'what happened to' the girls, or anything specific. (Related to the point I'll make later is that nobody even considered this relevant or publicly asked about it.)" SNIP > "For weeks, she grieved over the emotions she felt resulting from it. ...suffocating grief, sadness, horror, panic, sickening realization.... In refreshing her exposure to the session to 'detox' from it, she got enmeshed in it even worse than before." And comment on this: > "Nurses in ER don't want to have incoming patients, even children, die in their arms. Hey, it happens. You deal with it and you move on. You learn something from it and you move on. You do some psychological exercises or banishing rituals and you move on. You journalize about it extensively as catharsis and you move on. You talk to a therapist about it and you move on. There is a point here, somewhere... we move on."
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~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group--------------- As a former ER nurse, I understand completely what you are saying. Sometimes it was hard, sometimes it hurt. So what do you do? You cry. And you move on. I am, of course, coming from a different type of viewing than most here. I am Silva trained where I'd say 90-95% of our targets are human targets. And those human targets are predominantly either physically ill, mentally ill, injured, dying, or dead. There is a Silva technique for dealing with emotionally charged subjects which I'd like to pass on here. I, personally, have not used it, but I've tasked people who did need it, and it works quite well. Silva students are taught to visualize, beforehand, a knob in front of them. The knob is an intensity control. Turn it to the right to turn UP the intensity (if what you're getting is vague), and turn it to the left to turn DOWN the intensity to a point where you can more comfortably handle it. If the tasker notices that the viewer is getting very emotional, he/she suggests using the knob to turn it down. This usually allows viewers to move into a different psychic space where they can view objectively rather than be swamped with the emotions they are getting. I have had to learn my limits. In dealing with murder cases, I don't get swamped with the emotions, though I have felt the target's fear, horror, etc. But I DO get obsessed with these cases. Sometimes that seems unavoidable because they might go on for days or weeks, with new questions coming in daily. BUT, I know my reactions well enough to know that for my own mental health I have to limit the number of them I do, even though I consider them utterly fascinating. Otherwise, I would be completely obsessed with them, and think of little else. I realize that some do just this, but I think perhaps they suffer the mental and physical consequences of this over time. Sharon sharwebb...net www.fractalus.com/sharon Reply | Forward

#816

From: "nita...ulse.com" Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 12:09 pm Subject: Re: RV Drama Queens nitahickok Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hello PJ I was first trained in something other than RV. I was taught that you know what energy makes you as a person. I call it the energy signature. You receive all the information when you view something but you keep it seperate where it never affects the inner you. It is called warding or shielding. It makes it so you can be psychic in the normal world. I have been around people who make a big drama out of what they are. They make sure everyone knows they can see a ghost in a nice restaurant so they don't want to eat there. It can be really ridiculous. Your example of someone praying for God to shild them from negative energy is dramatic also. It is something that gives you a choice on what affects you. It basically comes under control of what you do or feel by taking responsibility that to do your best you have to look at everything. I feel that we do decide what we pick up or don't pick up. We do have to take responsibility for ourselves and how we act. A good warning sign is if we can't let go of what happens in our own life. We will probably not be able to let go on any other level either. Nita Whenever you hear that someone else has been successful, rejoice. Always practice rejoicing for others-whether they are your friend or enemy. If you cannot practice rejoicing, no matter how long you live, you will not be happy. Lama Zopa Rinpoche, "Transforming Problems into Happiness". Reply | Forward

#817

From: joan003...nk.net Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:23 pm Subject: Re: RV Drama Queens joanie003 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > Sharon writes: > There is a Silva technique for dealing with emotionally > charged subjects which I'd like to pass on here. I, > personally, have not used it, but I've tasked people who > did need it, and it works quite well. There is also a method in CRV for setting aside and dealing with potential deleterious effects of emotional perceptions. Like PJ, I also read of the woman's experience. She is a beginner student only and had not yet learned to work with emotionals in targets, so also had not yet learned the techniques for setting aside them. Also there was a caveat up front when the target was tasked that it was an operational one. I guess she wanted to jump in and try it anyway...and I think she's probably learned that there's more to learn before jumping in on such targets :-) If it's any consolation to those who don't do such cases well, Ingo Swann (the man who invented "rv" as we know it) doesn't do police work viewings for the very same reason of this emotional ladenness. This weekend in New Jersey he spoke of one case he worked on (a Mafia-style murder) and he couldn't shake the feelings for three weeks and it truly upset him. So he is apparently another RV "drama queen" when it comes to certain kinds of applications. When the police asked him for assistance on a subsequent case, he recommended three tough girl gutsy psychic broads to help them out :-) I think no matter what, it's always a good learning experience to be aware of one's own boundaries and the types of applications one would want to work on operationally when one gets to that level of expertise. This is one of the things the training prepares you for (if one opts for the "training" route.) So far I've done emotionals (even as a beginner student) and have suffered no deleterious effects. But then again I have a lot of prior experience in empathy work with respect to the cruelties of the world of the world and perhaps thick boundaries. I don't think that I'd want to make tough targets a habit, but I wouldn't rule them out either...just be equipped to deal with what comes of them. In the Spirit, Joanie -------------------- Moderator's note: Then again, as my article points out, usually those most beset with the 'deleterious effects' of not being stable or strong enough for psi work, are the last to realize it. So, ya never know! LOL! PJ Reply | Forward

#831

From: Richard Krankoski Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:18 pm Subject: Re: RV Drama Queens Rich_crv Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Sharon Webb wrote: > Palyne, > > I read your article, and it was a good one. > I agree, There always seems to be someone setting up some kind of door that only an elite few with "the right stuff" are supposed to pass through. Sometimes its a gated community, sometimes a high tech website, sometimes the secret doors of RV. Imagine being tasked with "slave laborers on the moon". Rich Reply | Forward

#833

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:52 am Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, I agree with Scott. And I am in no way diminishing Joes wonderful interview, but something is missing as to why the lack of $$$$ produced by RVer and ARVers other than from students. Now I've seen a lot of good RVers try ARV for $$$ and very few succeed CONSISTENTLY. Greg and JFK are the only ones with long term records of winning I know of, and they both are always battling many "problems" that Joe seems to dismiss as trivial. And Pru is the only professional RVer I know of that makes a living from doing actual applications. I was dissappointed that Joe indicated he did not even do that anymore..or that was my take. And actually that was your major opening question to Joe.. why has RV not taken off? Why so few big success stories? The reaons may be deeper than mere lack of skill ..I just wonder? Best Regards, Bill Reply | Forward

#834

From: "PJ Gaenir" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:12 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? dennanm Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Bill, > And actually that was your major opening question to > Joe.. why has RV not taken off? Why so few big success > stories? The reasons may be deeper than mere lack of > skill ..I just wonder? I don't know that the reasons NEED to be deeper than lack of skill in many viewers. Without that, nothing else follows, obviously. > something is missing as > to why the lack of $$$$ produced by RVer and ARVers > other than from students. Everybody is a student. I mean there are only half a dozen people from the stargate program wandering the public eye, and that is not many -- and how much RV do you see _any_ of them doing other than Joe? I mean you can't focus on the lack of ARV without focusing on the lack of RV across the board, it seems to me. > Now I've seen a lot of good > RVers try ARV for $$$ and very few succeed > CONSISTENTLY. I don't know that many good viewers. Consistency is an issue even in regular RV. I don't think I would suspect some "lurking variable" in this situation unless I was regularly tasking the same people doing ARV, on regular RV using the same judging method as ARV uses, and without them being aware of the difference in trial type. Then, if they statistically came out better in regular RV than ARV, I would wonder. But I personally doubt that this would end up being the result. I think ARV has difficulties because (a) people know it's ARV and all of our psychologies have to work hard against core beliefs about time, and I think this is why sometimes it works 'for awhile' but then flips; and (b) regular RV is only judged by most people as 'what it had in common with the target', while ARV has to compete with decoys. This requires a good deal more exactitude -- and unique data. RV done with judging like an ARV protocol would likely have similar results. This is another way of saying that most of us would feel somewhat less omniscient if our sessions were actually JUDGED like in an ARV, fuzzy set or rank order analysis -- vs. judged by us based on 'how well it matched the target'. ARV *forces* a level of performance that regular RV for practice does not. > Greg and JFK are the only ones with long > term records of winning I know of, and they both are > always battling many "problems" that Joe seems to > dismiss as trivial. Joe has spent 25 years changing his core belief systems. The rest of us are still working on that. The only PROBLEM in the end is lack of *consistent* accuracy -- and that comes down to an 'aspect of' skill no matter how you measure it - - and Joe is saying that skill boils down to fundamentally changing the belief system -- and that this is something one literally has to work on every day pretty much forever. And again, I don't see evidence of concurrent 'control' trials measuring other factors so that the ARV lack of consistent success can be shown to be MORE than "regular RV" would be under the same conditions. The same 'lack of consistent accuracy' is seen in REGULAR remote viewing, not just ARV. > And Pru is the only professional > RVer I know of that makes a living from doing actual > applications. I was dissappointed that Joe indicated > he did not even do that anymore..or that was my take. Bill, every time you read something and comment on it, I am left wondering if we even read the same thing! Joe's entire living with small exceptions is dependent on RV. What were you reading?? You know, I suspect that by the time a viewer -- and they are few -- gets to the point of perhaps being capable of doing ARV on something like a lottery, stock market, races, etc., that two issues then come about: (1) they can't do it alone without torquing the protocol (e.g., seeing decoys), but the minute someone else is involved you have again diluted the intent and talent pool; and (2) maybe by the time someone is that good, they don't want to do that. Repeated viewing with the sole purpose of making a buck may just seem... shallow and almost insulting. You know, a pretty woman who over time, got really deeply expressive and talented in sex, could probably make a small killing in the "market" for that. However, the more seriously she takes it and deeply she feels it, the LESS likely it is that she is going to WANT to go just having sex for money. By that time, there are a long list of other aspects of her sexuality that have import to her, that make it something cool for her, and the for-money approach ignores all of them. Maybe there is some --granted, obscure -- parallel here. PJ Reply | Forward

#835

From: "Sharon Webb" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:25 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? sharwebb_30512 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 PJ, I think that beliefs are primary in psychic work of any kind. Unless we were raised by elves, we are battling lifelong beliefs about viewing what the physical senses can't be privy to. Psychic work is NOT OFFICIAL. It is ridiculed, maligned, ranted about by self-styled "skeptics," and condemned by many religions. That's a lot of conditioning to overcome. When a person is pleasantly surprised by a few hits, then the old conditioning kicks in and says, "NOT!" And then most of us have to start over from square one. Sharon sharwebb...net www.fractalus.com/sharon >PJ wrote > I think ARV has difficulties because > (a) people know it's ARV and all of our psychologies have to work > hard against core beliefs about time, and I think this is why > sometimes it works 'for awhile' but then flips; and > (b) regular RV is only judged by most people as 'what it had in > common with the target', while ARV has to compete with decoys. This > requires a good deal more exactitude -- and unique data. RV done > with judging like an ARV protocol would likely have similar results. Reply | Forward

#836

From: "PJ Gaenir" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:42 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? dennanm Offline Offline Send Email Send Email > On 18 Oct 2002 at 15:25, Sharon Webb wrote: > Psychic work is NOT > OFFICIAL. It is ridiculed, maligned, > ranted about by self-styled "skeptics," and condemned by many > religions. I agree, although, I think the entire 'scoffer' community in its various forms, as well as the 'fear' community (religions) in their various forms, are both really just individuals affected just as we are by every minute of imprinting and upbringing. I don't have answers though, I mean, I am working on my own belief systems. I see gradually increase in viewing to the point where I feel delighted, and feel like I am truly in touch with myself and the future is mine so to speak, and then bam, I'm useless to the point where I feel like I'm having some kind of internal battle for/against doing RV at all. I back off for a couple weeks or a couple months, eventually get back into doing it, meditating, et al., and just as I get to that same point, the cycle starts again. I am hoping that gradually, I am working through the various issues, so that every cycle comes at a slightly higher level. I don't know yet as I haven't had that many of them. What I don't really understand is why I don't hear other people mentioning this really -- I don't think I'm any special case, yet sometimes I feel like I must be on some OTHER curve than the same learning one everybody else on the internet is on. PJ Reply | Forward

#844

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:55 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Dear PJ, Talking about inner fears of psi... Freewill is a real issue with me..and as I mentioned caused a lot of mischief . Now how many people would give up their concept of free will in exchange for being a 100% correct psychic predictor? Not me! Best Regards, Bill > --- PJ Gaenir wrote: > individuals affected just as we are by every > minute of imprinting and > upbringing. > I don't have answers though, I mean, I am working on > my own belief systems. Reply | Forward

#846

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:31 pm Subject: Re: Greg K website docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Those interested in Gregs results: See < www.Adventuresofgreg.com> and you can join him as additional FEEDBACKERS ( see his website for explanation)..if you wish. He is trying to make $100,000 in 40 trades (about 1 per week), so far in 5 trades he has made 30,000$ with 5 straight winning trades, and no losing trades, one week he did not trade because of a weak match. He plans to split the $100K between charity and his FEEDBACKERS. Greg has plenty of $$ and doesn't really need it... . So even if he is successful it will not address the metaphysical question of whether "greed" or "fear of loss" causes the failure in other situations. Bill* __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com Reply | Forward

#847

From: "Jason S. Shapiro" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:40 pm Subject: ARV - David Copperfield fetik3 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 All of this talk about ARV and profit, reminds me about David Copperfield's lottery match: 'He himself did not take part in lotteries because "I find them boring. I'm not a gambler," he said. In any case, he added cryptically, he wouldn't be able to "see" the numbers. "I used to try it out by giving friends the numbers, but then it would never work. If the numbers aren't kept secret, it doesn't work."' Read the article here... http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,574004,00.html -Jason Reply | Forward

#837

From: "scottrver" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:19 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? scottrver Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, > I think ARV has difficulties because > > (a) people know it's ARV and all of our psychologies have to work > hard against core beliefs about time, and I think this is why > sometimes it works 'for awhile' but then flips; and I don't think the psychology of our perception of time is really an issue because in most RV research neither the target nor the decoys are chosen until after the session is completed - thus they are always doing ARV in that sense. > (b) regular RV is only judged by most people as 'what it had in > common with the target', while ARV has to compete with decoys. This > requires a good deal more exactitude -- and unique data. RV done > with judging like an ARV protocol would likely have similar results. > > This is another way of saying that most of us would feel somewhat > less omniscient if our sessions were actually JUDGED like in an ARV, > fuzzy set or rank order analysis -- vs. judged by us based on 'how > well it matched the target'. ARV *forces* a level of performance > that regular RV for practice does not. Agreed, of course in research the sessions are almost always judged against decoys and/or rank ordered and there is clearly a consistent statistical effect in that situation. > And again, I don't see evidence of concurrent 'control' trials > measuring other factors so that the ARV lack of consistent success > can be shown to be MORE than "regular RV" would be under the same > conditions. The same 'lack of consistent accuracy' is seen in > REGULAR remote viewing, not just ARV. The problem with regular, non-research, RV is that it is never done against decoys and/or rank ordered. Thus, it's accuracy is always entirely subjective. Generally, I don't see a lot of published ARV research. I don't think you need any control trials in order to establish a statistical effect size for ARV which could easily be compared to various RV studies. > You know, I suspect that by the time a viewer -- and they are few -- > gets to the point of perhaps being capable of doing ARV on something > like a lottery, stock market, races, etc., that two issues then come > about: > > (1) they can't do it alone without torquing the protocol (e.g., > seeing decoys), but the minute someone else is involved you have > again diluted the intent and talent pool; and > > (2) maybe by the time someone is that good, they don't want to do > that. Repeated viewing with the sole purpose of making a buck may > just seem... shallow and almost insulting. You are assuming that researchers and highly talented RVers aren't greedy enough to co-operate and that they don't want to direct their own research as opposed to researching what they can get funded. I think you're a sleep-deprived single mom!-) ARV is the perfect tool to pay their personal and research bills - so is funding really an issue or is it part of an 'ARV doesn't really work' facade? So does it work or why do they have funding problems? In general, while my track record with ARV isn't hundreds of ARV events long, thus far I don't find it that difficult when done with rigorous controls. However, I am not betting my income on it (at least not yet). The biggest issues are team morale and judging. It's not fun to do sessions and then have an inconclusive status. Patience is not a virtue shared by everyone and there is a constant desire to tinker with protocols everytime they don't produce. There's also second guessing after the fact - "gee I didn't score that session quite right". I would like to better understand displacement and have a longer statistical track record. These are things that take time and methodical research - even if I can just ARV an answer. The bottom line is that we can conjecture forever, but we won't know without doing lots of sessions in well designed experiments. I think it's pretty hard to find people who will do lots of sessions because they are motivated to find out why and how it works - let alone people who can make target contact. Scott Reply | Forward

#840

From: "PJ Gaenir" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:34 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? dennanm Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hiya Scott, > I don't think the psychology of our perception of time is really an > issue because in most RV research neither the target nor the decoys > are chosen until after the session is completed - thus they are > always doing ARV in that sense. (1) Only in modern research. Not prior to the last few years, unless the trial protocol was specifically set for that. (2) If you compare anything to lab viewers, you assume on the skill of lab viewers. If they weren't highly accurate and consistent, they wouldn't have a job. They are a tiny % of the population. Just because they have at least mostly overcome any issues in that area for modern research stats, doesn't mean nobody else has them. I think psychology is the primary issue in everything. I am astounded that anybody would think that it is not. Well we're all different people with different opinions, obviously. > Agreed, of course in research the sessions are almost always judged > against decoys and/or rank ordered and there is clearly a consistent > statistical effect in that situation. But is only consistent with a teeeeeeny tiny % of humans who appear to be capable of viewing consistently -- that is one of the most primary factors in whether they are even employed! And even for the lab viewers, at their level of skill otherwise, consistency is the biggest issue. > The problem with regular, non-research, RV is that it is never done > against decoys and/or rank ordered. Thus, it's accuracy is always > entirely subjective. Yes, that was my point -- that assuming because the practice RV of oneself or friends seems 'good', that ARV should therefore have 'good' results too, is measuring by two different means. One could have the same session results in both, yet have the ARV hard results seem dismal, while one felt good about the RV stuff. > Generally, I don't see a lot of published ARV > research. I don't think you need any control trials in order to > establish a statistical effect size for ARV which could easily be > compared to various RV studies. Well but Scott, if we are talking about using lab viewers with many years of established stats and consistency and skill for all our research, both RV and ARV to compare, sure. That's been done. But if you are talking about comparing John Doe's layman's ARV results against regular RV results based on lab research, that wouldn't be logical, given that "viewer skill" is already openly the deciding factor many in science will quote when asked about why laymen viewers aren't getting better end results. So you would need to do those studies with the same viewers/judge etc. to have any realistic understanding of where any 'difference' in result might be coming from. Otherwise you can't pull viewer skill out of the equation for what variance there might be. > You are assuming that researchers and highly talented RVers aren't > greedy enough to co-operate and that they don't want to direct their > own research as opposed to researching what they can get funded. No, I'm not. I'm assuming that unless they were starving to death, which none of them are, that they might have other priorities. That doesn't mean they have no greed -- and they cooperate all the time -- it just means maybe other things dominate their psychology. Besides which, even really great viewers are potentially affected by their own psychological feelings about using it solely for money. (Even though IMO, some money would be well spent...) And you have to compare it even to normal life and psychology. I don't think RV is separate in some ways to the kind of decisions people make for other things. For example, right now, I could be making a ton more money than I am, and I really NEED money for a variety of important debts. But, I am doing work for entrepreneurial firms with serious budget constraints, for parapsychology clients which are infamously poor, and even substantial work for totally volunteer projects. It's not that I'm not as greedy as the next person, it's not that I don't want money, and it's not that if I made the money I couldn't hire someone for less than I make to do some of that altruist work for me. It's just a matter of what I want to spend my time doing. I want to do things that are of value to me, that mean something to me. I don't want to spend my time doing stuff for the metal-widget world. I have turned down a lot of lucrative projects that I could even hire out and only manage, because they weren't in a field that I was personally interested in. Even if objectively, doing so would make money to help me help my own world and goals. Money isn't everything. My TIME is my life, it is irreplaceable. I am selfish about what I spend my "time" doing. I worked my ass off for 12 years in the business world for other people, 100hrs/wk dedicated to whatever the companies needed. I did well, I made a lot of money, I got a lot of respect, learned tons of stuff and had a lot of fun. Then one day I just realized that although I enjoyed my work, it wasn't what I wanted out of my life. I want to do something MORE creative, something I think contributes to the world on a larger scale (and the scale *I* want - there are many), or directly contributes to my work/life in a way that 'transfers' to other things I'm doing (e.g., I've taken small jobs that paid for programming so I could reuse the scripts for volunteer projects). So if even I, outside of psi, outside of anything cosmic, "don't bother" doing something available to be just to make the money, then it does not seem unreasonable to me that maybe sometimes other people are like me. Maybe also to them, money is at the bottom of the list of reasons why they work. > I think you're a sleep-deprived single mom!-) Yes I sometimes am! However, if I wasn't, and we disagreed on anything, would you then assume some 'lack of brain' due to PMS?! Seriously, such things may or may not affect my personal reasoning about remote viewing, but I suspect that's a pretty minor issue. That's a pretty invalidating thing to say to someone. But I'll get over it. ;-) > ARV is the perfect tool > to pay their personal and research bills - so is funding really an > issue or is it part of an 'ARV doesn't really work' facade? So does > it work or why do they have funding problems? Well, we can ask Ed May and a couple others in the science field and see what they say. As I'm not them, I can only guess at the answers based on knowing them a little. The real answers would have to be theirs. > In general, while my track record with ARV isn't hundreds of ARV > events long, thus far I don't find it that difficult when done with > rigorous controls. Then why aren't you rich, using your own reasoning... :-) (see below) > I would like to better understand displacement and have > a longer statistical track record. Well that makes sense. Joe's response (which started this thread sort of) was simply that for him, displacement in ARV trials he's done was not a big issue. But there hasn't been a lot of funding for ARV that I know of -- so, most of his work has likely been operations, dowsing, and regular RV. However, as his science RV is tasked precog and rank judged against decoys, then as you said up top, it is all technically in the ARV category anyway. And in that category, he's saying displacement isn't a big issue for him, or he wouldn't have the skill and consistency he does. That's all. I don't think there is any big secret or coverup going on. It may simply be that there hasn't been more funding for ARV, and he's been working his ass off for about 25 years, so until either time opens up or research to pay him for the time does, not much of that will be done. However I should add that even in research, the viewer's interest and personal feelings about the outcome have a lot to do with results. So again we come back to psychology... > These are things that take time > and methodical research - even if I can just ARV an answer. Right. Hey, ARV an answer and then research it -- then you'd at least know if your ARV on that was correct. :-) > The bottom line is that we can conjecture forever, but we won't know > without doing lots of sessions in well designed experiments. I agree. > I think > it's pretty hard to find people who will do lots of sessions because > they are motivated to find out why and how it works If those were easy to find, a lot more people would practicing a lot more, I suspect. > - let alone people who can make target contact. Which goes back to what researchers have said to begin with -- that viewer skill is at the root of ARV success, and that it is rare to find "highly consistent" skill in our population. I want there to be a way out. I don't like the idea of anything being luck or unchangeable genetics or whatever. I truly believe that in the self-selected pool which are RV students, in the further self-selected pool of those who practice consistently (that trims the group down to pretty damn small), in the yet further self-selected pool of those who practice properly in a way that even basic learning theory would agree could be useful (which yet further trims the group down), that at some point, a decent number should become successful. I'm still waiting for this to happen, and I think it will, but I guess it'll take a little more time. PJ Reply | Forward

#845

From: "scottrver" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:13 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? scottrver Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, > I think psychology is the primary issue in everything. I was referring to only the psychology of time. However, I think it will be a long time before we can determine what the primary issues are. It might easily be that a persons psychology is driven by the number of psi receptors a person has. > Yes I sometimes am! However, if I wasn't, and we disagreed on > anything, would you then assume some 'lack of brain' due to PMS?! > Seriously, such things may or may not affect my personal reasoning > about remote viewing, but I suspect that's a pretty minor issue. > That's a pretty invalidating thing to say to someone. > But I'll get over it. ;-) Sorry - unintentional stupidity (is that redundant?) on my part, I don't think there's any correlation. I'll rephrase - I simply suspect very strongly that Targ wouldn't have left psi research unless there were some problem with ARVing for $$$. > > In general, while my track record with ARV isn't hundreds of ARV > > events long, thus far I don't find it that difficult when done with > > rigorous controls. > > Then why aren't you rich, using your own reasoning... :-) (see below) Because I haven't wagered large amounts on every bet. Of course, that may have changed the outcome - which gets back to my question for Ed May. Scott -------------------------- Moderator's note: Well it oughtta be an interesting interview. :-) Btw: sometimes people leave jobs for other reasons than losing interest in the technology.... :-) PJ Reply | Forward

#841

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:51 pm Subject: Re: Re: Why no RV $$???? docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hello Scott and PJ, I think if RV was done against decoys we could make a comparison and see if that was an issue. At this point I don't really know. No one seems to want to do it that way in the various practice lists set up.. ? However the issue of time perception is important. I think it is a real issue..and in fact have experience that it is. When I first started ARV I had a mental picture of the future being completely undecided and unpredictable at least for "random" or chaotic events ( otherwise no free will). Causing an inner conflict with what I was doing. My ARV was incredibly negative I missed 80% ( in the first 20)of the targets that way and only got 20% correct. Then I decided I needed a new perspective and decided that the future would be 80% predictable. Then I did much better on the next 20-30 getting about 75% right. However, it tailed down to about 58% right after doing 300+ targets, and I still haven't found a way to get that consistent 70% + one wants. But I note Joes perception of time is that it doesn't exist. I'm going to try some more with that perception of time and see what happens. ..G Best Regards, Bill Reply | Forward

#855

From: "Glyn" Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 6:36 am Subject: Re: Re: Why no RV $$???? gebega Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Bill :-), If I understand correctly, you are saying that it was your 'belief' alone (about whether the future was 'fixed' or not) that made that difference to your ARV results? If that is so, then that says something really significant, (and which others have been telling us for centuries :-))....it's *belief* that counts with psi (at least while we don't know how it works anyway). Believe it works, have faith in your ability....and bingo! Easy to say, hard to do. :-)). It even explains why you 'tailed' off after a while after 300+ targets. You should not have said to yourself that the future was 80% predictable...maybe you should have said 100%. Really! I personally believe that this is so, even though I still believe that there are probable futures until the final outcome. It's just that if you RV forward far enough, beyond the 'maybes' and all the discussion and associations and post-event discussion....maybe years and years after the event .......it *is history*, fixed, noone is thinking about it anymore; no 'interference' to pick up. No doubt about that IMO, not in our continuum anyway, and before we get into the possibilities that word may bring up, I think we've gotta deal with one time at a time (excuse the bad pun). LOL! Kind regards, Glyn Reply | Forward

#839

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Dear PJ, I'll get back later on this. But remember a group of the best at SRI tried the silver futures and were successful once and lost their shirt the second time..yet the same good viewers were there both times. Also, a good worker is worth his pay.. Nothing wrong with earning $$$ with your talent. I don't think RVers lack of $$$ is only do to being only interested in spiritual progress IMHO. Best Regards, Bill
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group---------- Moderator's note: You're right - I don't either. I didn't say "spiritual" in my example by the way. But it sounded to me like you were inferring some dark secret was involved. :-) Maybe not. PJ Reply | Forward

#849

From: Richard Krankoski Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:41 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? Rich_crv Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > PJ Gaenir wrote: > I don't know that the reasons NEED to be deeper than lack of skill in > many viewers. Without that, nothing else follows, obviously. A couple of years ago, if I remember correctly, Lyn Buchanan said he believed there were about 25 "world class viewers". I don't recall if that was "that he knew of", or estimated in general. Glenn Wheaton says there are many hrvg types still in the closet. Every so often an instructor refers to a particular student, sometimes named, sometimes un-named, as being exceptional ( how close that comes to world class I do not know) There are allegedly some number of trained people dating back to Star Gate / SRI who were never public. So that puts quite more than a handfull of exceptional viewers out there in one or more closets. The real mystery is the desire to remain in the closet. Maybe it's ET mind control or RI. :) Rich Reply | Forward

#871

From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 5:51 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? maliolana Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha PJ, As far as financial success goes...I have a similar deficit...I too ...have altruistic interests...and could probably have far greater effect... if the finances were more available... Were I to use my talents (all not just rv ones)...in money making adventures... I could be so much better off ...yet...the pursuit of money... bores me to death...What a quandry... Of course Greg is having a lot of fun at it...I might could do something like that...hahah...Maybe not well...but the fun part does sound attractive.. I thought your hooker analogy was perfect...hahah...Not that I think anyone that can use it... for making money ...is a hooker...... I have frequently wished I had done just that in my youth...hahaha...Especially when the bills create havoc...If I hold true to form...I will be well into alszhiemers before I decide I should have RVed for cash...hahahah Love & Light & Laughter Mali'o...aka...Dawna Reply | Forward

#872

From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:34 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? maliolana Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha PJ, Well I guess I am also one of those sleep deprived moms...Perhaps that is why females have a longer psychic herstory...having learned to function in alpha with theta spikes while dealing with everyday life simultaneously... I have the same type of cycles...I am now comparing my 'up' sessions with my 'down" or missed ones...I get up the 'getupandgo' and it lasts for a period of time...and then...I sorta burn out and have to slack off for a given period of time...It all varies...I feel my intellectual and intuitional low cycles may have some effect...as well as the highs...Emotional and physical as well...Maybe it is like Spring and Neap tides...? I am trying to figure out my personal process on this...I am using my biorythym clock as a comparison lately...Maybe the up and down of these cycles play a major role as perhaps does LST...and the two in conbination is very interesting to me...I won't know untill I get organized and consistant with this...or else have a program designed to check for these things on my old sessions...Has any scientific study been done using biorythms in combo with lST? Love & Light & Laughter Mali'o...aka...Dawna ------------------------- Moderator's note: Far as I know, 'biorhythyms' is not scientifically evidenced at least as it is written. I read that book years ago, but far enough into it, it turns out that it's not just when the cycle is at X range, it's also this much before, and after, and above, and below, and criminy by the time I was done taking notes on it I felt like any precision with it had been muddied to the degree that it could then be used to explain anything on earth, so I lost interest. There are lots of "biorythyms" in the scientific sense though -- I mean, hormones and a zillion other things. But if there is anything science related to that book, I haven't heard about it. Not that I would necessarily know, mind you.... -- PJ Reply | Forward

#838

From: "stanley01420" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:37 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? stanley01420 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > --- In pjrv...ill Pendragon Greg and JFK are the only ones with long > term records of winning I know of, and they both are > always battling many "problems" that Joe seems to > dismiss as trivial. Maybe JFK and Greg should be teaching it. I've been watching Greg and he's really doing an amazing job of proving himself. He must be doing something right!! I'm waiting for Greg to teach his methods. :-) Mary Reply | Forward

#842

From: "scottrver" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:46 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? scottrver Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > I'm waiting for Greg to teach his methods. :-) He does on his website www.remote-viewing.com Reply | Forward

#848

From: aeonblueau8008... Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:53 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? terri8008 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 It's not an instantaneous thing. It's still quite a far flung concept. If you are looking for cliental, well that takes time, time for your rep to spread. Believe it or not, not everyone on planet earth is looking for a viewer. RV is not that good nor dependable. And there is the money aspect, and the vast, vast majority of folks don't understand, don't have a clue as to what RV is, for most folks we are just another Psychic. (I am currently working for and with someone 6 weeks now(at 2 weeks a person is missing, two months.. something has happened ) .. who just sent me a note saying they have told friends and family the have hired an Australia RVer(on the case) This person wanted to know exactly what an RVer was. (Geeze). As a note they are totally thoroughly at odds and wits ends, police/officials etc, so are now personally undertaking/going on my data reports, so fingers crossed I am spot on locational help/guidance) And there is your hit(detail)rate.. which supports not to mention compliment$ the word of mouth. Most of it is underground and you will never ever hear of anything. How many are there on Stargate list ? That's about how many folks overall on this planet are(rreally) interested in RV. About 50 are trained. (trained being a bad word) About ... a long stretch, 200 work some form of some RV, not some PSI skill but attempts at disciplined RV. About 20 are consistently accurate. That's it. That's not enough to impress the planet,not to mention pro or con. As a rule I only work pay per view targets. It's enough to keep me entertained and in practice. Joe got lucky (not to mention he is very very good) and paid his dues has 20 years into it and pushes the fact, he has honor and respect (pro) support or it seems (Japan) acceptance. This makes a huge, gigantic difference in the scheme of things. Not to mention he has been catered to, brought up, grown up among the very elite of PSI, ideas and ideals, science/scientists/nonfiction-fiction and fantasy. That makes a difference when you are being or practicing PSI. Who among us would eat their hat for that advantage ??????? even a smidgen. That makes a huge difference. IMO Much of RV lays in the tasking (tho many may disagree or take umbrage), and in that you trust. (I'm not talking about working target pools, for the most part you end up frustrated and irritated with yourself- left always trying to figure it- figure it figure it out . . . .) All the best ~~Terri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Forward

#852

From: Richard Krankoski Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:45 pm Subject: Re: Why no RV $$???? Rich_crv Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 > It's not an instantaneous thing. > It's still quite a far flung concept. > If you are looking for cliental, well that takes time, time for your rep to > spread. > Believe it or not, not everyone on planet earth is looking for a viewer. > RV is not that good nor dependable. That is the key. That is the whole story. If RV were good and dependable and if there were really good RVers then all it would take is the kind of constant self proclaimed, unasked for examples of the kind that emit from Dames and Psi Tech. Imagine if they had even a 30% hit rate! Imagine if all of the public members of Star Gate produced a weekly or even a monthly data session on feedbackable events and topics and imagine if they were as accurate as they claim to be.... or half as accurate.... What do you suppose the results would be? Would there be interest by media other than Art Bell and Jeff Rense? Would their "columns" be as popular as astrology? Would they become syndicated in national newspapers and magazines? Imagine if a "world class" RVer or two or three or a dozen ( we all could root for our favorites) demonstrated this skill regularly on a public forum. Imagine the enrollment! What if a group of foreigners joined in? Can you imagine RV Monthly on the news stand? Will never happen. Not enough beef. The legends are far greater than the facts. The hype is overcoming the efforts of the few. Highlight the UFOs and ETs and the closetfull of buddies and move on to the glitter of fiction and glamour of movies. Does this belong on Freevent? Rich ------------------------ Moderator's note: LOL! Well, it's about RV at least. :-) PJ Reply | Forward

#832

From: "Pame" Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:46 am Subject: Re: RV Drama Queens elittlestar Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi PJ, RE; your RV editorial Drama Queens, I think I saw a pun in that. We do seem to be in agreement on this aspect of related ethics. You established some known facts well, In reference to the need for RV screening process for the potential RV'er. Also representative of some very good guide lines for potential and present RV'ers. Now if only others can see this the same way. Take care, Pame

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