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Source Location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/
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pjrv : Messages : 2929-2933 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/2929?)
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#2929

From: James Phillip Turpin Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 2:23 am Subject: psychological hang-ups james_p_turpin I'm a pretty inexperienced viewer, but that is not my worse problem. There are other psi techniques that I know. I hope you don't consider this off topic. I want to discuss my current psychological hang-up associated with psi, not really just the technique. But since the technique is the context, I think I should detail it. I recalled a few days ago that I know a methodology for answering binary questions which has never failed me on the few occaions that I have used it. My brother got it from a book, and he gave me the book to read. My brother had so much confidence in the technique at one point that he actually used it in on multiple choice college entrance exams, and although he didn't get prefect scores, he did well enough to get into college. The way it works is that you hold a pendulum (or any sort of weight on a string or chain) in a particular awkard grip so that your autonomic nervous system can easily control the motion of the pendulum. You then associate four different motions with 'yes', 'no', 'don't know', and 'won't tell', by tasking the phrases. Then you are free to ask yes/no questions and get answers via your autonomic nervous system. And it is _very_ obvious whether it is your automic nervous system in charge, by the quality of the hand motion being jerky rather than smooth. Before I (and probably my brother as well) did not think of it as a psychic technique, but just a method of accessing the subconscious. It was mostly just a parlor game. The other day I put two and two together and realized that if this technique can access subconscious data, and the subconscious has psi ability, then this method can be used as a psi technique. Anyway, I (consciously) want to use this technique for the sort of things that one might use ARV for, using similar protocol. (The protocol wouldn't be identical because this technique gives yes/no answers directly rather descriptions & sketches). I did one test run, on the outcome of a sporting event. For about the first 3 seconds I got an 'I don't know' response, which then changed to a 'yes'. I gather that it took that much time to access the information. Anyway, it turned out to be the right answer, and I haven't been able to bring myself to use the technique since. I'm a little scared that it won't work, and a little scared that it will work. (But I _do_ want it to work.) But I don't understand why my fear rather than my curiosity is an overriding factor. The thing is, this technique is _supposed_to_ pad against information that you can't handle by using the "won't tell" response. And it also seemed vastly superior to ARV. Back when I believed that this technique was not really psychic, people told me that such techniques could open one up to 'other forces'. Maybe that's what I'm really afraid of (even though I don't see how it could be personally dangerousto me). Maybe its just a vague fear of the unknown. When I was very ill once, I had myoclonic (spelling?) seizures, associated with intense pain. Maybe that has implanted a fear of the sort of autonomic functioning required to use this technique. I really don't understand what it is that's stopping me. I'm only assuming its fear. Whatever it is, its somewaht subconscious. It's happening more by self sabotage - failure to take necessary steps to prepare, such as by buying newspapers to aid tasking and making time - than by conscious decision to not do it. I think this illustrates a very common problem with psi, that without understanding why or even consciously admitting it, people simply refuse to do psi, or at least refuse to do it correctly to realize its full potential. Any thoughts or suggestions? Especially suggestions. ;) James Reply | Forward

#2932

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Tue Apr 8, 2003 11:20 am Subject: Re: psychological hang-ups pjgaenir Hi James, First I want to thank you for being brave enough to discuss (let alone bring up) this kind of topic. I personally consider these kind of issues (psychological) to be some of the most important issues for developing psi functioning. They are usually ignored. And it seems most folks are either oblivious or in denial, or perhaps think their small measure of success means a subject like 'fear of psi' can't apply to them or they wouldn't have what success they do. Or maybe they're right and they have none of it, but the psychology angle of psi research, most anyone I've talked with in this regard, would have a hard time believing that. So would I. I believe that innately, we are powerful creatures who would seem nearly godlike if all our abilities were manifest at their full ability. I tend to think the difference between our full ability and whatever we have is a matter of what we psychologically allow for ourselves, although some of that may be on fairly deep levels. ----- Joe McMoneagle, in the RV Oasis interviews last year, commenting on psychology in viewing: Q: How much of `psi talent' do you think is really a matter of psychology allowing/accepting psi? Joe: All of it. That comes from "knowing" it's real, not believing it to be so. And commenting directly on the subject of 'fear of psi': Q: There's been talk about subconscious "fear of psi" relating to the common decline-effect, and contributing to why so few end up `world- class' remote viewers like yourself. What do you think? Is there really such culture-wide fear of psi? Do you think people realize they've got it? (Many viewers discussing it online say it's not a problem for them.) If you think this is an issue, how would you suggest viewers address dealing with this? Joe: If someone says that this is not a problem for them - then I would say they have never communicated with their unconscious mind. It's a major issue, and one that never goes away. It's a fear that's not just culture wide, it's pervasive in all cultures. Even those that have practitioners of PSI have fear of it. It's speaks to the dark side for most. It's an uncomfortable window to things we "shouldn't have access to." There are no suggestions for dealing with it -- since there is no way of truly conquering it. It's one more battle that's constantly waged in doing RV -- a battle you sometimes win and sometimes don't. If you haven't read the interviews, don't miss 'em: http://www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/pjrv_interviews.cfm ----- In research over the years this has been acknowledged pretty generally as a major issue. Dr. Charles T. Tart, a psychologist who was a consultant in the place/time of some of the STAR GATE programs, has at least one article online about it... Ah here it is, 'Acknowledging and Dealing With the Fear of Psi': http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles2.cfm?ID=35 As a last quote-note, the topic of dowsing was addressed in Joe's interviews too: Q: Have you ever heard of the military trying dowsing or other psi outside of "RV"? If so, what were the results, do you know? If they were reasonable, why didn't it "stick"? Joe: Dowsing was used a lot in the unit actually. In fact, I was trained to dowse by a Ms. Francis Farelley while working at SRI- International -- she was one of the best dowsers in America at the time. A platoon of Marines were trained to dowse for booby traps and tunnels in Vietnam and my understanding (based on what I read about the results) was they were able to demonstrate a significant reduction in wounded in action, and effectiveness in searches within NVA controlled villages. Why it didn't stick is easy to ascertain -- it wasn't institutionalized. In reviewing military history, one can find numerous areas where things are not institutionalized that work very well. Sniper units trained for WWI, WWII, and Korea were discontinued after each of those conflicts even though they were considered to be quite successful. They were probably discontinued because they were not viewed as morally acceptable (much like RV I suppose.) But, subsequent to Vietnam, they have been institutionalized. Eventually, it is my hope that RV, dowsing, and other paranormal practices will be institutionalized at some time in the future. When, would be anyone's guess. ----- > There are other psi techniques that I know. I hope you don't consider this off topic. Not at all off topic. You notice the subtitle of this group is 'practical psi'. The fact is that long term viewers often do quite a decent amount of other psi practices either spontaneously or deliberately, including pendulum dowsing which you described. The list is open to other types of psi and to indirectly related topics such as meditation for example. It just doesn't get a lot of talk in those areas. Which is really rather funny, in a way, I have all kinds of people that PEM me about OBEs and experiences during meditation and I wish I could share them with each other, but I guess they're not comfortable sharing with the list at large. Probably they don't realize there are others who'd be right up that alley. Remote viewing is just a form of psychic functioning after all. There are other forms. The psi part is human-wide. The form (and within that, the method) is just a reduction of focus-size, to concentrate intent in a certain way. I find dowsing just as interesting as RV. My personal goal for this group (which is usually more wishful thinking than reality :-)) is for some discussion about the personal stuff, experiences and issues, the overall development of people working on developing psi ability. There are after all lots of other sources of how-to do psi, or what's going on in the world of psi. To me, the most important resource in discussion is whatever isn't addressed elsewhere and is most needed, and to me, that means the raw- ly honest stuff that is usually going to get into stuff either experiential or psychological. When RV got pulled out of the magical/shamanic areas to 'clean it up' from various other beliefs outside psi, it developed a few drawbacks I think, as there were certain benefits to those models psi was pursued within, despite their other problems. People in RV often are not making a "personal development" curve life-wide. Sometimes they are doing nothing but RV, and even that, they assign little focus on besides fun and developing skill. I think this tends to either limit results, or eventually, the side-effects tend to make them a bit unbalanced, as they haven't developed strengths and discipline in other areas. ---- > Before I (and probably my brother as well) did not think of it > as a psychic technique, but just a method of accessing the > subconscious. It was mostly just a parlor game. The other day > I put two and two together and realized that if this technique > can access subconscious data, and the subconscious has psi > ability, then this method can be used as a psi technique. Exactly, and often is. Isn't it funny though how that slight shift in concept so changes your relationship to it. It's kind of like in viewing, it's common for people fairly new to it to do very well, but and after some time (duration varies), suddenly they're worse, and it takes awhile to get back to where they were. It's the psychology finally realizing it's REAL that seems to be behind the common 'decline effect'. When (or if, or how much%) that is compensated for depends on a lot of factors. > I did one test run, on the outcome of a sporting event. For about > the first 3 seconds I got an 'I don't know' response, which then > changed to a 'yes'. I gather that it took that much time to access > the information. Anyway, it turned out to be the right answer, > and I haven't been able to bring myself to use the technique since. > I'm a little scared that it won't work, and a little scared that > it will work. (But I _do_ want it to work.) But I don't understand > why my fear rather than my curiosity is an overriding factor. I haven't got the answers on why. I do suspect though, from working with hypnosis on myself and others for a long time, that if ten people encounter something, and three are disinterested, and two really are interested but are too busy for it, and three are really into it, and two say they actually feel, when they think about it, a bit uncomfortable or even afraid of it, though they love the idea -- it is just as likely that the first five have fear as the last two, and it is just as likely that the three 'into it' do as well but do not as quickly absorb to the subconscious level what is going on, and so will be happy-go-lucky with it for awhile, until they do. At which point they will suddenly be disinterested, or too busy, or feel resistance. What I'm getting at is, I consider that you are honest with yourself and aware of yourself, and open with others, which is why you noticed it, recognized it, and are able to volunteer it here. But there are lots of others who at root have the same issues but project them onto something else. You're not the lone ranger on this, but chances are in the RV world you might start feeling like it, since the usual response I get when I bring up the fear-of-psi topic is that people think it's just not a problem for them at all. Even people actively practicing psi sometimes choose to do so in ways that I see as a direct result of their fear of psi. > Back when I believed that this technique was not really psychic, > people told me that such techniques could open one up to 'other > forces'. Maybe that's what I'm really afraid of (even though I > don't see how it could be personally dangerousto me). Well, if your answer inside your own head to those comments was, "It is just subconscious," then realizing your subconscious can "open up to" psi information could spark that response I suppose. The fact is that psi is the great unknown, it is the universe and more. Realizing we can open up to psi is more than a little "Pandora's Box" in action. I think it is normal for someone who fully realizes this (down to the gut level) right off the bat, to feel a huge caution, one that might even be strong enough to be fear. > Maybe its just a vague fear of the unknown. Sounds like a pretty specific fear of the unknown to me. But 'unknown' is a small word to cover everything implied by psychic functioning. > When I was very ill once, I had myoclonic (spelling?) seizures, > associated with intense pain. Maybe that has implanted a fear of > the sort of autonomic functioning required to use this technique. Yikes. Most severe pain and severe fear manifests later as a fear-of- fear. The fear of having the FEAR again is actually stronger than the fear of the pain, if that makes sense. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) for severe cases (like combat vets and severe injury events etc.) tends to contain a good deal of this. > Whatever it is, its somewaht subconscious. It's happening more > by self sabotage - failure to take necessary steps to prepare, > such as by buying newspapers to aid tasking and making time - > than by conscious decision to not do it. I think this > illustrates a very common problem with psi, that without > understanding why or even consciously admitting it, people > simply refuse to do psi, or at least refuse to do it correctly > to realize its full potential. I agree completely. The difference seems to be that you are able to realize this shortly into it and some people never do. ---- > Any thoughts or suggestions? Especially suggestions. ;) Well I'm no expert on the cure given I have plenty of the symptoms myself. But I can suggest things I work on, that might be of value to you too. The first is, there are a variety of 'active meditations' - basically visualizations which are 'led by intuition and imagination', which means a "conscious dreaming" technique, such as archetype meditations. It's best to learn and practice them on positive issues you have no problem with, or like your sun and moon astrologically or something, until you're comfortable letting these happen (so it's more subconscious driven imagination than conscious will). But once you get them down, you can do these directly on 'fear of psi' if you like and it's pretty interesting. Journalize afterward what happened in the meditation. They may all be radically different, they are very spontaneous and always unqiue experiences. If you go to the RV Oasis archives on Firedocs, enter in the title- keywords-search field 'fear of failure'; also 'fear of psi'; for some earlier posts on these topics in the group. Search on 'archetype' for a long post where I explained how the meditations mentioned are done. Archives: http://www.firedocs.com/archives/Archives_RVOasisPJRV2.cfm You can also ask for a dream to both explain to you, and to help 'vent' some of, any fear of psi you may hold, and tell yourself you want to remember it. Write down any dream you remember no matter how offbeat or seemingly unrelated. If you don't often remember your dreams, do this until you finally do remember one. You might also consider planning in advance (and sticking to that limit) what you're going to dowse. Rather than sporting events, try other targets, different sorts. Make a list and see if you think you might be more open to one kind of target than another. Work where you are and with what you can and I think that helps, and gradually you can expand your horizons. Be aware that a lot of "indirect" psychological associations can come into things based on the target types. For example, issues with money can affect remote viewing for things that can be bet on or won. Issues with theology can affect remote viewing esoteric targets. Also, you might try dowsing blind, which puts it more in an RV protocol, make about 60 targets and put them in envelopes, and blind- dowse on them. Then open them up to see what they are and write your answer on them. In the dowsing world it is not normally done blind, but when dowsing is done within the RV process, it is. I don't know how or if this applies to the fear of psi issue, it's just a note. Anyway, I'm glad you brought this up. I consider it both relevant and important to most viewers, but there's a fairly small number who openly admit that this might be an issue. If you decide to do any of the conscious dreaming meds, or dreamwork, I'd be interested to know how it goes for you if you want to share. Regards, PJ Reply | Forward

#2933

From: Barbara Baumgardner Date: Mon Apr 7, 2003 9:39 am Subject: Re: psychological hang-ups threebears4u Hi Jim, I am going to reply to this because in doing so I may help you or someone else out there. I grew up very psychic in a non supportive home. I was loved, but I was told I was imagining things. Psi was discouraged. As I grew I became more aware of my Psi and discovered abilities that I did not know anything about except that they were there when I needed them. So here, intent was everything, just like in RV. If you wish to grow in Psi and use it, don't be afraid of it--it is a part of you like your arm, and it won't hurt you, but also be aware that as you allow your psi to surface that you may come to know things that you wish you didn't, like the impending 'death' of a loved one, or other things like that. The information is not discrimanatory--you become open to all of it. Understanding Psi and understanding how to work it, as well as coming to terms with your fears of what you may find out takes work, and what I said about being 'safe'--always work for the good of all and you will always be safe with psi. Soooooooo, have fun, and come out of the closet with you psi. Let it grow and see what happens. As far as the pendulum thing goes, if you like that--great, but I would not get on an Rv board and say Psi is better than RV. And, if a Pendulum will just give you a yes, no , or maybe, RV will give you a lot more than that, so I am + PEACEFULLY + :)disagreeing with you. In my opinion they they both work together--at least for me they do, because I have never been formally trained in RV. However, training is important, even if you are a natural, and you would like to be the best that you can be with respect to RV. Soooooooo having said that, I will tell you I ordered some training tapes so that I can learn more about RV, and hopefully do better. I also recommand that you go to firedocs.com and download the manual and start there, and join farview and do a target at least twice a month. I will tell you like I was told the first time someone the boards gave me a target and I said - "What do you want me to do with these numbers?" and I was told 'Just to let my mind 'Go There'. Just TRY it and see what happens. Go ahead and have fun with it. There are also tapes for sale on ebay--enter remote viewing and check it out. BTW, I encourage you very much to put the pendulum aside for awhile ( you have all ready mastered that anyway ) and work with the energy of your hands in dowseing. If you have never worked with energy before, go to a gem and mineral store and buy yourself some crystals and a book on them and start discovering how the energy of one stone is different from another. Once you can do that, then you can move on to sending energy and feeling energy--as in dowseing. I have never been trained in any of this-- but this works i watched as someone else did this andi tried it and found that I could do it too.. I also use dowsing in Rv---I use my hands. Becoming familiar with energies can only help you in RV you can sense the energy of a target, and it helps you to hone in where you want to go. Go for it. Kind Regards, Barb pjrv : Messages : 2930-2945 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/2930?)
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#2930

From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 9:16 am Subject: Re: psychological hang-ups hstearnsjr Hi, I found this works very well for me also. The movements are called "ideomotor responses". Dowsing uses the same effect. It's useful for more than "yes/no" answers, for example map dowsing, where the pendulum will move to the spot of interest on a map, or it can be used to find a lost object-- just ask it to swing in the direction from where you are to where the object is and if you move and do it again, the directions can be triangulated to where they cross. Similarly, I found it works well on lottery forms (only I use a lightly held pencil for that one). P.S a year long experiment I did with lotto resulted in a 5 times better than chance winnings. Not a lot of money, but it proved that it works :-). Sometimes, I'd get all or most numbers "right" but shifted left, right etc. on the form. Attempting to compensate was futile. I guess my subconscious saying "you're not ready for that yet". After a while, you can dispense with the pendulum and just "feel" for the warm spot or direction. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona Reply | Forward

#2945

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:27 pm Subject: Re: dowsing docsavagebill Hi Hoyt, Good going! That's a significant improvement over chance. You should try it with horse racing or sports betting. They pay off much better for low odds betting ( 2:1, 3:1, etc) over chance. Lotto doesn't return a very good proportion to the low odds cards. Usually about 1/2 the $ goes to the state and most of the rest goes for the big long shot payoffs. I like to do hand dowsing myself. I mark yes and no on two sides of a card and put a pin thru it and spin it.. and then feel which side is hot. Then spin again and generally do 4-6 trials. I think it may work even better if another person keeps track of wins and losses so your don't know if your picks match up. BTW.. I've never heard if dowsing really works better if there is formal feedback?? Most people don't seem to bother with feedback for associative dowsing. Best Regards, Bill

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