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Source Location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/
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Archivist: Palyne PJ Gaenir (PJRV, Palyne, Firedocs RV, TKR and the Dojo Psi.)



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pjrv : Messages : 3700-3700 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/3700?)
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#3700

From: Penny Zingery Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 4:26 pm Subject: Re: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation pzingery Thanks, PJ, for the highlights. {From Benton's posting on TKR. - PJ} > 4. Instead of a physical being tapping into some well of > consciousness, he has grown to see himself as "A consciousness being > with a physical connection to reality. All information becomes > accessible across time/space and the primary or driving influence is > the remote viewers conscious intent and expectancy for outcome." At > least, I think that is what he said, remember my notes are ragged. Years ago, I heard a woman say that she once thought she was a human being trying to be spiritual, but had changed her mind, and now thought that she was a spiritual being trying to be human. I thought that was profound. The way I see it, I think that "spiritual" can be substituted for "conscious," as it pertains to consciousness. I think, too, that all the information is already there. > Probably a side effect of wanting to understand a > seriously torqued family dynamic, I'd guess!) I'm pretty sure that's one of the things that drive me, haha. > I believe that intent is exponential. I've seen this in hands-on > energy work in groups and with individuals; I've seen this in > magickal rituals; the same experience done alone that allows a nice > altered state, can shock the hell out of you with its intensity when > done in group. And the psychic connection of a group modifies how > you have to look at everything, because it shows up in so many ways > people don't realize, particularly concerning will and dominance/ > submission. It's a literal minefield for psychology, not to mention > RV assumptions, when it comes to remote viewing. I'm glad you said that. I've been pondering some group dynamics questions lately. This makes a lot of sense to me. > Well as Linda pointed out, lurkers may actually contribute their own > psychic energy to the mix in a positive way; they simply may not have > the inclination to share or they may not have time to do the viewing, > so feel like they have nothing to say. (Why is it people with talk > and no viewing so seldom seem to have the same inhibition? LOL!) Well, that may apply to me, haha. I'm looking forward to learning how to actually DO something. Penny pjrv : Messages : 3672-3719 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/3672?)
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#3672

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 12:24 am Subject: Psychic Drag and Manifestation pjgaenir I have a serious question for you metaphysical theorists. Do you think it's possible that the consciousness of people in any unit--a family, a church, a field of study, a country, a planet--is what primarily determines what manifests? Do you think it is possible that some things are far more difficult to accomplish, if the consciousness of that group is not in accord with it? That varying levels of resistance, not just overt but even on psychic levels, may cause a psychic "drag" on manifestation of something the conglomerate of energy isn't ready to deal with? I think on some level I must have always believed this. In business, I never brought people into project teams who seemed to resist--on any level--certain fundamental directions I felt needed to be the way of it; I've included people on operations and warehouse teams I disagreed with over those I liked better because on a core level, I honestly felt that their end-direction-intent was more aligned with mine. I've always had good results in biz so felt it worked. I think I've long felt that every person that was part of--or even knew about, to some degree--something, their energy became "part of the conglomerate" of human energy/intent involved. I later wondered if that was behind the 'secret' stuff in magick, if it was a matter of limiting, to the degree possible anyway, the 'involvement' of other peoples' energy in your stuff. It seems to me there are two levels of primary 'motive' on psi levels for what manifests in 'consensus' reality (if that exists): 1 - The founding intent of any given thing. I think that replicates holographically forever. With rare exception this doesn't usually prevent manifestation, it usually determines more like, 'how' it manifests and long term destiny of sorts. 2 - The group energy of the people involved and/or affected by the given thing. This seems where the 'manifestation' comes into play, not just the formal inception for the world of a thing, but the amount of resistance it may encounter. You see, I've been thinking about RV in this light. The stargate program on some level, to me, seems like the combined fed-up-finally manifestation of something so many were ready to demand, psychically, finally happen for our people... beset by the energy, even in the groups using the services, of people who were not ready or willing for it to manifest. Perhaps the issues that eventually drove it under reflect something about the founding intent or the degree of resistance, or both. The IRVA has worked to sort of unite the field on some level; their level of success in this seems to depend on who you talk to. I wonder if sometimes, some forms of resistance happen partly because on psychic levels, people just aren't ready for that, or aren't ready to exclude certain streams of affiliated energy in the RV field that a solid leadership and union in the field probably would result in eventually. The TKR project opens this month and it's big, and it is hands down the single best opportunity any individual viewer ever had for remote viewing support. That it also supports clubs, practice groups, formal schools etc. if they wish to use its tools, is cool, because it sort of combines a centralized, unified energy while also supporting the diversity of the field itself. Yet, I actually feel on some level like it--sometimes taking the hit simply because the project is driven at base by me--faces resistance, not just the obvious anything in this field does, but on psychic levels too. Maybe the field at large is not entirely ready for demonstrations of real RV. Maybe that's why there's so little of it. Maybe anything that would ask viewers for demos for real prior to claiming grand expertise in the field is really terrifying. Maybe anything that supports the freedom of individual viewers, in a field with a lot of cliques that are hard-held by leaders, is on some psychic level considered a threat. Maybe anything that supports viewers of different methods and groups being equal and accepted is not really desired by everybody. I mean I know these things SOUND LIKE the obviously good ideas and needs of the field. But what seems logical and even what people would say they support, is not always what people do on core levels. This is easily demonstrated by any RV skeptic who insists they want proof and then won't look at evidence or fairly test anything. ;-) It's human nature, and it operates with people IN the remote viewing field as much as people outside it. I actually feel as if--sort of a subtle feel here, not an intellectual one--as if moving forward in the remote viewing field with something like the TKR Galleries, is like carrying forward a bunch of psychic inertia, and running into--more as it comes closer to opening time--more psychic resistance. I can vouch for the founding intent. I can't vouch for what might be the overall, cumulative consciousness result in the field at large. Will the field's overall inertia of silent people continue to sit like stones? I have to admit it drives me nuts how many good people, who I know are truly interested in RV, never bother to say anything, participate, when the only structures that support them, now or later, often wither for the lack of their support. Or will some of it break out and use the tools? Will the field's various levels of resistance even to actual psi (yes, I see that-- dunno if others do or not) hopefully be weaker than the driving motive of enough people in the field to develop their psi and accomplish something as a whole field? It's almost like a science experiment. Aside from my personal investment--which after 15 months of work is considerable--I have this sort of closet psychic-sociologist fascination. Will its existence help the field at large, the groups in focus, the people as individuals, closer to a decision about what they REALLY want? There is a saying that people have the government they deserve. That this is a fair statement because at the point enough people are no longer willing to abide something negative, they will either overthrow the leaders or immigrate elsewhere. And if they haven't done so, as long as they are sitting passively doing nothing, then they are--no matter the excuses--indirectly supporting the regime. Well maybe this saying in a way applies on a broader level to any given field of study. That maybe a given field has the opportunities it deserves. Because the people who won't speak up to support good things, who won't speak out to critique negative things, who won't speak at all lest they be politically or personally buried by the response, they indirectly support the inertia and the negatives they don't dispute. Maybe what DOES exist in a field is a good example of what on some psychic level, that conglomerate-consciousness of its people have gotten to the point of demanding. I have seen a little more sharing of sessions even between people PEM lately. And Shelia's been running practice on StarGate, and there's other groups that do practice. The IRVA conf had an informal tasking on Hussein that apparently many nailed for results, which might equal a paper in a journal somewhere. I've had many people I barely know contact me willing to have some relation to the coming TKR, and even my former enemies have taken a long breath pause from dissing me, hopefully long enough they will come play too. (It's ok. I have new ones, apparently, so I'll never be lonely. ;-)) These are positive things, right? Small but positive signs? Are they the first stars coming out? Are they the glimmers of the overall field of viewers finally starting to demand something more, more opportunity, more community, more positive relations rather than fighting cliques? Are the TKR Galleries' coming "birth" into manifestation for the field, a sign that our people have finally gotten enough psychic momentum--either by numbers or skill or fed-up- ness--to group-create a reality where the field is more supportive of viewers, of actual viewing, of positive relations between viewers? Do you think we're almost there? 'Cause it seems to me that if this flies, it is a statement that the field is finally ready for it. I have a gift for doing things ahead of the time people are really ready for them (story of my bleepin' life), but I had a static version of this years ago, in 1997--it wasn't time, I took it offline, almost nobody was interested. Maybe now it's time. Maybe there is really hope here. Maybe despite the psychic 'drag' of those not really ready to deal with many of the issues of psi, RV and the field at large, maybe the forward-momentum is finally taking the upper hand, is finally ready to break into the light. I don't see any major opportunity for a whole field of people as something one person or a team of people creates. I see it as something only the whole field can manifest, on some level; something would have killed it before now if the field truly wasn't ready. Are we ready to rock and roll? :-) PJ Reply | Forward

#3681

From: "Glyn" Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 5:52 pm Subject: RE: Psychic Drag and Manifestation glynis5799 Hi PJ, > I later wondered if that was behind the 'secret' stuff in magick, if > it was a matter of limiting, to the degree possible anyway, > the 'involvement' of other peoples' energy in your stuff. I once attended a gathering where the leader of the group promised a 'manifestation', but alas nothing happened; she eventually made the excuse that there must be unbelievers present. :-). There may be something in it though, because any negativity, let alone at a psychic level, can put the dampers on things done in a group, even if it just saps enthusiasm and stifles new ideas. There is great emphasis on 'teamwork' at my place of work too, because it is recognised that if one horse is not pulling properly then the whole cart can lose motivation and grind to a halt. Parapsychologists have talked about the affect that observers can have on experiments ; and even that some experimenters are reported to have had significantly different results when attempting to duplicate the efforts of others under identical conditions; contributing to the apparent 'fickleness' of psi, but which may be something else. Our own negative thoughts and self doubts can harm our own results in every area of life too, hence the popularity of all those 'Positive Thinking' and 'Creative Visualisation' books, which sound so good but we never seem to be able to put into practice ;-). I think it is natural to want to cluster in groups for serious RV practice with those we hope we can safely trust will never discuss our results or personalities anywhere else. The fear of failure is strong, and a friendly, but enthusiastic and highly-motivated environment is essential I think. No lurkers, no shirkers and above all, no nasties :-). Yes, unfortunately there are people in this field (as in all areas where people interact), who make full and open exchange of ideas and opinions nearly impossible. However, because the number of people these bullies manage to insult eventually reaches critical mass, they manage to achieve isolation..and then of course they wonder why. > Maybe anything that would ask viewers for demos for real prior to > claiming grand expertise in the field is really terrifying. Probably, given the unreliability of psi. However if there is the opportunity to be anonymous, then they may take part. Besides if some had a run of gooduns then they could always jump up and say "Hey that was me all along! :-). > Maybe anything that supports the freedom of individual viewers, in a > field with a lot of cliques that are hard-held by leaders, is on some > psychic level considered a threat. Not only on a psychic level I would guess :-) > Are we ready to rock and roll? You bet we are, start up the music! LOL! Encouraging thoughts from, Glyn Reply | Forward

#3692

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:18 pm Subject: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation pjgaenir Hi Glyn, > the excuse that > there must be unbelievers present. :-) Oooh, the 'I can't do it and it's YOUR fault!' line. :-) > There may be something in it though, > because any negativity, let alone at a psychic level, > can put the dampers on > things done in a group, even if it just saps > enthusiasm and stifles new ideas. Hmmn. Benton posted on TKR after seeing McMoneagle at a lecture at Rhine, hope he doesn't mind my stealing a piece and putting it in here. The full thread (his visit starts at page4) is here: http://tinyurl.com/39zzx ----[quoting Benton]--------- As for the content... here are some of the highlights. 1. There is no information transfer, all the information is there. He said they have tried EVERYTHING to sheild PSI, and the only effective thing to stop it is doubt. 2. He and Ed May believe that PSI comes through our reptilian brain. 3. Ego subdues PSI, and training the ego to limit the ego helps RV. He advocates meditation practice. 4. Instead of a physical being tapping into some well of consciousness, he has grown to see himself as "A consciousness being with a physical connection to reality. All information becomes accessible across time/space and the primary or driving influence is the remote viewers conscious intent and expectancy for outcome." At least, I think that is what he said, remember my notes are ragged. 5. If you know you can RV, you can RV. 6. When he RVs, he is patient. He takes down gobs of sketches and notes. Gobs.... waits..... gets more info.... delays his conclusion. 7. Intent of everyone in the project is important. I got the impression that despite all the questions, most of us were left with more questions than we arrived with. I sure was. ----[end quote]---------

#1 po

int -- about doubt -- and

#7 ar

e the reason I copied this in here. (I do not actually think that Joe has the only and final word on all things RV, despite my often quoting him, but thus far he seems to have the most informed word of interest to remote viewers, if the combination of science and skill matter.) > I think it is natural to want to cluster > in groups for serious RV practice > with those we hope we can safely trust > will never discuss our results or > personalities anywhere else. I agree. I was emailing about this with someone the other day. Group dynamics are one of the most fascinating things to me in this field. I've long been a sort of closet sociologist, and for years my personal studies were all about hypnosis and cult-psychology; the dynamics of will and group interaction has fascinated me since I was a teenager. (Probably a side effect of wanting to understand a seriously torqued family dynamic, I'd guess!) I believe that intent is exponential. I've seen this in hands-on energy work in groups and with individuals; I've seen this in magickal rituals; the same experience done alone that allows a nice altered state, can shock the hell out of you with its intensity when done in group. And the psychic connection of a group modifies how you have to look at everything, because it shows up in so many ways people don't realize, particularly concerning will and dominance/ submission. It's a literal minefield for psychology, not to mention RV assumptions, when it comes to remote viewing. > and a friendly, but enthusiastic and > highly-motivated environment is essential > I think. I agree. Remote viewing is done alone by many people who can't share that interest even with their closest family. The internet is all a lot of people have got. That's why I think the web is such an opportunity for the field. Most viewers are "independent" to one degree or another. Even those who begin in groups, often migrate into more independence later, through personality or through flexing their method into something more comfortable for them personally. There need to be opportunities for people that include a decent sense of "community", because most viewers haven't got it in their physical life with RV. I think people who are physically alone with it, probably better appreciate the importance of positive community on the internet. > No lurkers, no shirkers and above all, no nasties :-). Well as Linda pointed out, lurkers may actually contribute their own psychic energy to the mix in a positive way; they simply may not have the inclination to share or they may not have time to do the viewing, so feel like they have nothing to say. (Why is it people with talk and no viewing so seldom seem to have the same inhibition? LOL!) The shirkers part is hard to address, because for everybody I associate with except maybe 2, remote viewing is something they have to do 'around' a job and family and everything else. How much time a person can put into viewing--let alone into talking about on the internet--varies wildly. As for 'nasties', well, they come in all colors as the saying goes. And any of us can be personally 'sparked' sometimes, and what we think is right and fair might be pretty different than how others feel. I think if a group of intelligent adults can agree to debate issues, rather than insult individuals, a lot more individual differences can be encompassed without meltdown. I was once attempting to have this discussion on the stargate list, I think it was Calabrese's infamous presidential sex tasking at issue (or rather IMO, her article about it), and I was trying so hard to make the point that if the topic was worth getting upset about, then it was worth talking seriously about, the topic itself, not the personality. As I recall that led to a major argument with me and Wheaton about something different, which completely distracted me. The actual issue of tasking ethics as a serious topic never really got addressed, beyond the "Bad Pru!" level of accomplishment. I recently posted about this issue (and others) on the CRV list and got totally ignored too, LOL! As much as people LOVE to morally pontificate against others, even attack, they sure show damn little interest in intelligently or fairly conversing about the same topics. I wonder why. Oh well. Not my problem...! Anyway back to the group dynamics thing. I think it's visible from the variety of groups in the field that community within them helps the people involved with them (which is often a pretty small subset of their overall membership). Psi Tech finally provided such a good online followup to training that their people aren't wandering the internet looking for something to do with RV, they're busy within the walls of their own group. (Given I've hardly been on loving terms with their principals in the past, I can't tell you how much it annoys me that they really do seem to have the best thing going in the field. LOL. Well, at least I am honest, regardless.) Most the rest of the field finds what they can, either through little groups of students of the same trainer doing projects, or in independent community projects like Rob's grillflame.com. As a final thought, if after a year or so, if we have sufficient participation in TKR, I'm going to go solicit some cops and docs I know to see if we can pull in real ops for the viewers at large. Even if they're not something needing our data, like past stuff they can share with identities involved kept anonymous, still it'd be excellent real world training. PJ Reply | Forward

#3714

From: "Glyn" Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 5:31 pm Subject: RE: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation glynis5799 Hello PJ and all, I said previously.. > No lurkers, no shirkers and above all, no nasties :-). > Well as Linda pointed out, lurkers may actually contribute their own > psychic energy to the mix in a positive way; they simply may not have > the inclination to share or they may not have time to do the viewing, > so feel like they have nothing to say. (Why is it people with talk > and no viewing so seldom seem to have the same inhibition? LOL!) I put that badly PJ. It rhymed though didn't it? LOL!. I didn't mean those who watch with interest on large groups, or who are new and waiting to know the lie of the land before contributing....I do both myself. I meant more in the context of smaller practice groups..the group dynamic thing....everyone contributing something, keeping agreements re timetables (apart from unavoidable excuses of course), so things do not founder and grind to a halt. > As for 'nasties', well, they come in all colors as the saying goes. > And any of us can be personally 'sparked' sometimes, and what we > think is right and fair might be pretty different than how others > feel. I think if a group of intelligent adults can agree to debate > issues, rather than insult individuals, a lot more individual > differences can be encompassed without meltdown. I agree, but I had in mind the 'nasty' of a different sort. The bully. Most of us have come across them. Those who will become aggressive and deliberately offensive in order to win an argument or crush perceived opposition. I do not want to, and will not, be around people like that, they are a waste of resource and if allowed to create a climate of fear of reprisal, will stifle free-thinking and establish dogma.. Discussion/debate, disagreement, even if animated, is one thing, and can be mind expanding, and the life-blood of progress and the stuff of peer-review.........the other is like living in someone else's 'box'. > The actual issue of tasking ethics as a serious topic never really > got addressed, beyond the "Bad Pru!" level of accomplishment. I know what you mean. Arguments about ethics. I personally would not want to do that sort of target myself however. Yuk!! :-). Lots of other things I am interested in.. Among them......Working 'esoterics' or 'unknowns' with no validation..has this any value? What happens when we RV fiction? Do some do frontloaded targets, and why? Why the heck can't we RV alphanumerics (generally)... and is there any way round it? 'Masking', misdirection, and manipulation of the results of others..is good focus a defence against this?. How many are worried about RT, and why? What do people think about RI? (now that does seem to be a sensitive one ;-)). Is PK something else? Can we RV from a lucid dream? Is OBE just another type of lucid dream, or can we validate our experiences? So on...and so on. Some subjects even seem to be somewhat 'taboo'. Why? Cheerio for now, Best Regards, Glyn Reply | Forward

#3719

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 8:00 pm Subject: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation pjgaenir Howdy Glyn, > So on...and so on. > Some subjects even seem to be somewhat 'taboo'. > Why? Well, nothing is taboo for me--for myself. Some things I'm totally disinterested in, but that's different. I often have a far more conservative presentation publicly, because I am to some degree trying to offset an extreme lack of ... well, what I'd call "groundedness" in the field at large, so I try to be as grounded as possible, as I feel some sense of... well you might say influence, in a real small way, resulting from the website traffic and email I get. No big deal, but enough that I feel obliged to take how I present RV seriously and be responsible with that. But I am constantly coming on an idea or photo and thinking, "Oooh! What will my mind DO with that? I can't wait to see!" and dropping it into my target pool. It's all about learning how our minds work, getting to know the deeper parts of ourselves. I find it all equally fascinating. I mean damn, how can anybody resist a target like a dolled up drag queen, or a painting of a fairy, or a rosary? I'm just so interested in how it'll work, what'll be the result. I do a lot of stuff informally, as 'energy work', that is not in a formal RV context. I don't talk about it; it's really nobody else's business and there's a ludicrous amount of armchair morals online that tend to freak about anything perceived as remote influence, either that it isn't possible or they want to write your 10 commandments of psi-human interaction. It doesn't take a burning bush to know most the folks opining wouldn't know psychic rapport from a burning bush and are scared as hell about the whole topic, hence their left brain adamant opinions and knee-jerk response. So I don't get into this stuff in RV areas, even though healing and archetype work are some of my primary interests. If I ever finish my OWN website some of that'll be there. But the experience itself, I feel, dovetails into my RV gradually, because psi is psi, really. I'm also fascinated by how different approaches to RV change how my mind functions. For example my 2 'imagestreaming' trials so far have been quite different in result than regular RV and while I would not trade RV for it, I loved it, and it's one of several techniques I'm going to be adapting into some experimental Paint By Number Plans. (Just to make sure nobody takes 'em too seriously, I intend to call them exactly that.) I think several of Win Wenger's techniques can be adapted to psi work, Silva certainly is psi work and has some interesting techniques too. But often, the doctrine of 'how' one should RV is as much a box as 'what' one should RV. Of course, since the 'how' is being marketed/sold, that's probably a given. I think as long as proper edu/info on what is officially RV is not lost sight of, it oughtta be time to drop the "My-Doctrine's-Better" tendency this field has and get more personal experimentation in. > It rhymed though didn't it? lol ;-) I suspected that was the case. You're right. People who agree to be dedicated in a small group need to be, or it's just not workable. > and will not, be around people like that, > they are a waste of resource > and if allowed to create a climate of > fear of reprisal, will stifle > free-thinking and establish dogma.. Less talking and more viewing can help. You know what's funny. A few weeks ago, cleaning up my PC for the new year, I happened to come across a document I wrote in early 1997 for Lyn Buchanan. It was a discussion of the difference between people whose primary goal with remote viewing was the personal experience, vs. people whose primary goal was skill and results. I was actually on the side of results in this paper. It was so mind boggling to read this and realize I wrote it. Because today, I am completely on the other side of the argument. And in fact, the MORE I view, the MORE I get experientially-oriented, and the more I feel all the left brain stuff misses the point as much as someone preaching about enlightenment or faith can't begin to touch those actual experiences, and frankly are unlikely to inspire them sitting through an hour of droning. It's a funny thing isn't it, how people are most inclined to preach left-brained about things they aren't experiencing on the right-brained side. (I use these terms in a slang sense. That science is not nearly as literal as folks think.) Me too, I mean everyone is, it's like human nature. RV is starting to become more like a drug to me--it's sucking me in, LOL. It's like having a crush on parts of self you never met before, meeting perspectives you never knew you had. I am 'cyclical' in practice, I seem to have regular 'pause' periods, I think to integrate. Then I go back to it, and you know, like I wrote some time ago, I am fascinated by the experience and then I often dream about the more esoteric perspectives of it. I never got this from the intellectual theories of how it should be written on paper. That is not a flaw in those things; they have their place, and they have their benefit, for left brain people like me who'd have had NO clue how to begin otherwise. But this LIVING RV is something different. There was a link on freevent recently to this article about buddhism, this guy was writing about waking up to REAL experience and insight and realizing the formula officially approved religion had ceased to be about HAVING insight, experience, compassion, enlightenment, and instead had become the study of the concepts of those things, which is really quite a different thing. I liked it a lot, and it made me think of RV in some respects, and then all of human experience. For those interested who haven't seen that article: http://www.my-hope.com/Bill/essays/elearningbuddhism.html Regards, PJ pjrv : Messages : 3678-3754 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/3678?)
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#3678

From: "Linda & John Garvey" Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 12:46 pm Subject: RE: Psychic Drag and Manifestation linda_g7us PJ, I do feel that on a psychic level, resistance to a project can contribute to impeding its manifestation (which is probably why I am careful with whom I discuss anything I personally want to manifest). But I believe that on the other hand, enthusiasm, even silent (not everybody is an extrovert ;), can and does empower the desired manifestation, in many cases overcoming resistance. I have experienced this on a personal level with projects. Consciousness and intent is a powerful force indeed, I think. Linda G "The distinction between past, present and future is only an illusion, even if a stubborn one." -- Albert Einstein -- Reply | Forward

#3679

From: "P. R." Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 2:23 pm Subject: RE: Psychic Drag and Manifestation elittlestar HI PJ; I agree; I feel your first two paragraphs really sums up the what, and how things work. In my life's observation I've seen that, that is how it works... There is that exception where one person can manifest around him, his own little perfect world, and he will die trying to maintain it... That man is an island! This type of person is obsessive compulsive, with a narrow view of the rest of the world. This type of person will maintain that world at all costs and to not be worried at the discard of others not in his image of perfection. I see this happen when the outside image is more important then the conscious energy to support the whole. Creating the few that can only wonder why they have so few. And then you have the Very Good who will go into hiding in fear of any ridicule from the insane mundane masses, and the high and mighty few. At this rate, change may take a few hundred more years;o) ,,,from a metaphysical theorists point of view.. pr (please note the gender 'he',/'man'/'him', was generic for person) ...o oo oOo ...(--O--o-) ....\~o~o~/ .....\____/ .......\**/ ........[||] ......._[|]_ ...../____\.. a cup of cheer!
~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-PJRV_group------------- ...........~*Pame*~ @~~@ ......~ ~It's a NewYear '2OO4'~ ~ Kindness is my sign 4, 'Love You'! __________________________ > Do you think it's possible that the consciousness of people in any > unit--a family, a church, a field of study, a country, a planet--is > what primarily determines what manifests? > > Do you think it is possible that some things are far more difficult > to accomplish, if the consciousness of that group is not in accord > with it? That varying levels of resistance, not just overt but even > on psychic levels, may cause a psychic "drag" on manifestation of > something the conglomerate of energy isn't ready to deal with? Reply | Forward

#3695

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 1:39 pm Subject: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation pjgaenir Hi Pame, > At this rate, change may take a few > hundred more years;o) ,,,from a > metaphysical theorists point of view.. pr Yeah... I actually see this. There is a song by Peter Gabriel--a real master at writing stuff so moody it's like an altered state reality all its own--called "San Jacinto," about the Native American culture. In it, he's saying, "I hold the line!" in a way that means... when you see things changing and vanishing around you, some people are strong, will keep the faith, hold the line of it. --- This reminds me of a silly story from high school. At a choir competition, a group we'd competed against before was present, and they were just mind bogglingly good. My friends and I were huge fans of this choir, and we decided when they were done, we would all give them an ovation--and with any luck, the number of us standing would encourage others, but even if it didn't, we wanted them to know that we, personally, had great respect. They deserved the accolade. So the time comes, and... since nobody ELSE is standing, all my friends chicken out! Aaargh! I stand there clapping, and I'm SO embarrassed. It would have been easy to sit down real quick, to adjust my dress or something--but it was the MORAL of it, you know? So I stood there damn it, too stubborn to be a coward just because my friends were. Not surprisingly my favorite nemesis in the bass section gave me hell about this the entire rest of the year, LOL! I'd just put my chin up and smile when he teased. He had no courage, so it wasn't surprising he didn't recognize it, I told myself. ;-) Sometimes, even in the little things, holding to what you believe in matters. Not so many things are gigantic decisions of glory after all, like in movies. Real life is made up of the 'little' things. --- McMoneagle has commented that how we present RV right now, may have as much effect in 50-100 years, when our culture may be more ready to deal with psi, than it does now. That makes me think of how today in our culture, we are sometimes digging through the fragments we have left of history to find something suppressed or dismissed or reinterpreted before our time. While the mainstream is auto-bred to scorn, some independent thinkers read stuff from the late 1800s/early 1900s, Mesmer's contemporaries on "distance hypnosis" and things that may have profound psi implications, now and later, in ways we don't even know yet. When you read old stuff you so appreciate the few that gave real info, that were fair, that represent it well--without a lot of other junk mixed in. Somehow, the ego and the religion and the scoffer bias is so painfully obvious when reading history--it all just comes off as so childish and sometimes hilarious. The web as we know it has a limited lifespan. Wearable electronics, as soon as a central net and the OS wars settle, will explode harder than the www did, and before long websites will be as archaic as IRC and usenet became in 1995-6. So it's hard to say, of all the RV info on the internet now, what will be available in 2104. It may be harder for our descendents to put together pieces of history, than it is for us to do so, because binary oblivion is more complete than an out of print tract, those can usually be dug up, but once something's off binary, well...! I tell myself that just maybe, what will survive, is what someone, as the world changes, thinks is worth saving. Who knows 40 years from now, something about RV that we talk about now, may be public because some Jane Doe viewer goes to the trouble to 'dig up history' and put it online. I think that's one of many reasons it's worth archiving real discussion, and talk with experienced viewers. We don't know everything, and we're all learning, and I suspect we all think, "Well in 20 years we'll know so much more!" But criminy, that's what EVERYONE thinks in every field. In the late 1800s Crowley, well educated and part of a wave of enthusiasm to 'scientifically approach human consciousness' actually predicted that, having clearly experienced and documented "multiple dimensions" of reality, and entities, and so many people in his field being aware of this (it was so obvious to THEM), and experimenting-- he actually believed science itself would have a handle on the deliberate exploration of other 'dimensions' within 50 years. I can't tell you how sad it is to read that, and realize that we may not be even as far along today as some were then. I thought 8 years ago we'd have moved farther in RV than we have today. Maybe my assumptions about how much more we'll know in 20 years are just that. Maybe no matter how shocking the idea, people in 2104 will be digging up history from 1998 to re-learn what was lost, just like we do with old stuff. There's no telling. That thought alone makes me reconsider how important it is that we create something now, at whatever skill level we're at, for the future. I'm told sometimes by others that we are clueless, and people in the future won't need such stuff as developing viewers, even novices, talking about their session or some point of method or some spontaneous experience. I disagree. I do HOPE it's true. But it might not be. So it's up to us to hold the line--for the next people who might be working to rediscover what we think today is obvious. Whether that happens in just a year, as new people come into the field, or in 100 years, as someone digs up history for another look. In some respects, right now, we are creating the foundation of RV. Much of what follows may depend on what we make possible, what we keep public record of. How we present ourselves -- the ethical profile of public presentations of RV -- the belief systems and mental models we promote -- the new ideas we're willing to explore -- the freedom we allow our own people to develop and experiment and experience [without locking them into cliques/religions] -- all these things may be our pebble in the pond, which ripple through time and leave more a mark than we dream. I see us as being at an important point in history (though one always is), concerning RV. PJ Reply | Forward

#3680

From: Rfjuice... Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 4:47 am Subject: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation rfjuice2000 Hi PJ, Whew, you are a little RV tornado! Glad we have you! I do believe that the subconscious feelings of individuals within a group do get spread to others within their "circle". While I don't think it concretely influences people one way or the other, it can put the idea in their head for them to think about it further. As far as resistance on a psychic level, yes I think that happens too. All I can do is try to close things like that out of my little mind. :> On a conscious level, I don't even read posts that are argumentative, it seems to drag me down, I'd rather spend my time practicing than reading a lot of negativity. Maybe my feelings of wanting to progress and do something worthwhile with RV will spead subconsciously, who knows? I do appreciate the tremendous amount of work you and others have done to help us all along. It is so helpful to have these resources available, I'd still be wondering what all those pictures are when I meditated. So the momentum is going. See, you made me write, and I hate writing, Linda Reply | Forward

#3687

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 5:38 am Subject: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation ozblueriver Hi PJ, I've had a good think about everything you said in this post. There are about 1,000 questions in there. LOL I can answer them all in one quick sentence for you, and I know you well enough to know that you will take me the right way. ;) The answer is: "Know thy self and you will know the universe". *If* we create our own reality, then we are ultimatley responsible for what we create. Why have we created certain circumstances? I suppose only deep contemplation will reveal why, but if you want to change the world.....change yourself. (wink) I know you have proven to yourself what you're capable of manifesting, so what are you putting in the way and why? Usually it's what we think is everyone elses problem. LOL Ok, I'll stop before I get a psi pillow thrown at me. cheers Palyne, Liz Ahhh......thud.........Oh too late it got me!!! LOL ----------------------------- You're right, of course. There's no getting away from it... responsibility. But damn I keep tryin'. :-) PJ Reply | Forward

#3702

From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 7:16 pm Subject: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation maliolana Aloha PJ, Your resolution said it all...I am working on a similar life lesson...Learning to treat myself...at least as well ...as I would a stranger...and to strive for the level/ability of nurturing myself... at least as much...as I have managed to conjour up for others... Those that I thought might be in need of it...and that I couldn't avoid (at times... I am a sucker)several times in my life... Face it...your a star PJ...Cause your heart.... is even bigger than your ego...hahahah...I think your coming into your own...You aim for the highest values in my book...You know that real status/wealth/success ... is determined by how much you give away... Aloha & Ao & Ho aka'aka Mali'o...aka...Dawna ---------------------------- Thanks for your support Dawna--seriously. Now, you're going to have to quit being so nice 'cause it's making me sick. Nothing personal. ;-) (I psychically hear others going, "Yeah, me too!" LOL.) I can hardly accept the compliments that come with "Thanks for holding the door open." I'm getting better... but anything much more than that embarrasses the hell outta me. So... your enthusiasm is both touching and mortifying. I handle insults better than I handle compliments, not that I wish to encourage anybody to this instead, LOL! I just don't want to know what that says about my psychology... PJ Reply | Forward

#3707

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 5:23 am Subject: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation ozblueriver > [gushing kindness deleted by moderator, despite > Liz's quoting. You see, I have all power. lol.] Sorry PJ, I'm going to have to agree whole heartedly with Dawna on this one. -g- Thanks for being the genuine person you are. (It's OK. Just breathe!) LOL cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#3710

From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 9:16 pm Subject: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation maliolana Aloha PJ, > quit being so nice 'cause it's making me sick. Nothing personal. [...] > I handle insults better than I handle compliments, not that I wish > to encourage anybody to this instead, LOL! I just don't want to > know what that says about my psychology... You know...I hate to admit it...but I relate far too much to this reply of yours...hahah...Just adding a little balance to your critics... But that is the other ladder we all must climb...Staying real/centered... even when others finally begin to recognize our gifts...and get jealous... Cause... when we recognize your gifts...we are also tooting our own horns...ahahhaah...Cause we are sooo smart... to recognize it!...haha PS...Don't worry ...one of my alter ego's will be taking over soon... Love & Light & Laughter Mali'o...aka...Dawna Reply | Forward

#3754

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 12:48 am Subject: Re: Psychic Drag and Manifestation ozblueriver > [gushing kindness deleted by moderator, despite > Liz's quoting. You see, I have all power. lol.] Hey PJ, I missed this post. ROFL You edited out all Dawna's nice complements. You cheeky sod!! Well I might just have to do my own gushing post dripping with very long flowery complements about how great you are. Hmmmmm let me think....where will I post it?.......Hmmm maybe Stargate, Freevant, TKR, .........oh and I wouldn't dream of leaving HRVG out. They would love it. -G- Now, what was that you were saying about 'power'?? Who's got all the power? ROFL Liz -------------------------- Ay gods. Please don't. Why must y'all torment me so? My only consolation is that it probably makes those who dislike me, really gag. :-) Admit it, all this being so NICE to me is really cruel and unusual. -- Especially unusual. ;-) PJ

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