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pjrv : Messages : 2810-2903 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/2810?)
00:25:33
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#2810

From: "Glyn" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2003 4:46 pm Subject: P-I-A magazine gebega Hi all, Over on the IRVA list Marty Rosenblatt mentioned the latest PIA magazine. It is really good. This particular article caught my eye as it fits in with recent discussions. http://p-i-a.com/Magazine/Issue9/Intuition_9.htm The part towards the end when one of the viewers appears to cause the other to 'miss'........I could be wrong, but is that that an illustration of 'hijacking' (?). I'm a fan of future memory theory myself, and think that when RVing we are taking a peek at our memory of the outcome (feedback), forwards in time...but the writer (and many others) thinks it involves tuning into the actual event (target). However 'psi' may turn out to work though, I must admit that I do agree with the writer that RV involves precognition. It's the old debate I think...Is the future pre-ordained or not? Is a final event set in stone or are there probable futures until one 'path' becomes so loaded that it becomes the final story. Can that 'path' be artificially loaded though? How much free-will do we have...none....or perhaps more than we think!? Do read the article it is very interesting, as is the whole site. Regards, Glyn Kind regards, Glyn Reply | Forward

#2814

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2003 8:19 pm Subject: Re: P-I-A magazine pjgaenir I guess my response wasn't meant to be. I wrote this LONG ol' response to you Glyn, and yahoo ATE IT by demanding I re-login when I submitted. Times like this, it is a good thing I don't have the phone number of the programmer that made the decision to "not care" about this major bug. PJ Reply | Forward

#2824

From: "Eva" Date: Sun Mar 23, 2003 9:25 pm Subject: Re: P-I-A magazine k9caninek9 PJ, I have finally learned to highlight and paste ALL posts longer than a few sentences to the clipboard in case of such disasters. Since I've finally trained myself to do that, I've thanked myself for it time and again. That prob just happens just way way too much. SOmetimes it's even my own dumb fault for not realizing I am no longer connected to the net! -E --------------------------- Moderator's note: That's why I said it wasn't meant to be -- it was a subconscious setup. I NEVER post something without copying the whole post into buffer first -- except that ONCE, would ya believe?! -- and it got me. So I figured on some level I did it to myself! Auuugh. PJ Reply | Forward

#2842

From: "Glyn" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:27 pm Subject: RE: Re: P-I-A magazine gebega :-). I've done that myself PJ, and it's always when you've nearly got to the end of a really long mail isn't it? Never when you've only just started. Fate or what?! Yes 'Techiecide' is definitely in order. LOL! > I guess my response wasn't meant to be. I wrote this LONG ol' > response to you Glyn, and yahoo ATE IT by demanding I re-login when I > submitted. Reply | Forward

#2885

From: James Phillip Turpin Date: Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:50 pm Subject: RE: Re: P-I-A magazine james_p_turpin My emails service automaticly save interrupted sessions. I don't know of any publicly available free service that does that, but it might be worth looking into. I think the main reason that most services don't do that is that they are HTML/Jave based (or something similar), so the message only exists on your computer until you send it. So the email server can't implement an auto-save without writing files to your computer, which would require promtping you to find out if that is OK each time, which is likely to cause more problems than it fixes... If you get an email service that uses Microsoft Outlook or Pine, that is probably best. Alternatively, you could compose your longer emails in a word processing program, saving frequently, and then copy and paste when finished. -------------------- Moderator's note: It's not email. We're talking about doing list stuff online, on the web through yahoo's interface. Saving email is no problem, at least for most email programs. Thanks for the tips though--they'll help someone! PJ Reply | Forward

#2828

From: "stanley01420" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:42 am Subject: Re: P-I-A magazine stanley01420 --- In pjrv...oups.com, "Glyn" > I'm a fan of future memory theory myself, and think that when RVing we are > taking a peek at our memory of the outcome (feedback), forwards in time...but > the writer (and many others) thinks it involves tuning into the actual event > (target). However 'psi' may turn out to work though, I must admit that I do > agree with the writer that RV involves precognition. Hi Glyn, Wouldn't both of those examples involve future memory? > It's the old debate I think...Is the future pre-ordained or not? Is a final > event set in stone or are there probable futures until one 'path' becomes so > loaded that it becomes the final story. Can that 'path' be artificially loaded > though? How much free-will do we have...none....or perhaps more than we think!? > > Do read the article it is very interesting, as is the whole site. It's a matter of direction I think. If you are walking down the street, it isn't hard to predict where your next step will fall. or where you will be in two seconds. Looking at patterns, it's not hard to predict that children grow and spring turns into summer. There are other, less understood patterns I think. Patterns that constantly repeat themselves. Free will is, in my opinion, a much used and little understood term. It's a facinating subject and very interesting web site. trypper Reply | Forward

#2837

From: "Glyn" Date: Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:11 pm Subject: RE: Re: P-I-A magazine gebega Hi trypper, > You said... > Wouldn't both of those examples involve future memory? It depends on how individuals think psi works as to what they think is involved, and it's all speculation at the moment. Some think that we directly access the target, and yes, in the story that would involve somehow accessing the future event itself and 'bringing back' a memory of the shoes that the girl was going to be wearing. However, future memory theory as per JW Dunne would say that the viewer (he doesn't mention RV, but it would work the same way), would be only accessing his memory of *having seen* the shoes in the future. Not much of a difference I must admit, and in my opinion all the same thing. In future memory theory (to explain how precognition may work) an event is not accessed directly ....only our memory of it having happened, and this can be distorted, muddled, confused and even downright wrong depending on the stage at which we accessed that memory (Too close to the even and we may be wonderfully correct as the memory would be clear, but also we could be completely wrong if we picked up a probability and the final outcome was going to be changed; as happened in the story. Too far forward and the memories may be vague, distorted, morphed, muddied and maybe mixed with imagination.....and towards the end of our lifetime our memories may be fading or even worse ). Sorry if that isn't clear, I'm not as good as PJ at explaining things :-). Continuing on from that...we have to use our 'real-time' memory in order to absorb and 'bring back' the data retrieved from our memories down the road in the future, and if a viewer has a very good memory in the present, then it stands to reason, barring accidents, that his memory in the future is going to be the same (or even better if he is training it). I've always thought that a trained Intel operative would be bound to have a head-start in that respect. That may or may not have been a consideration., or perhaps it was just observed to work better for those with trained memories without fully realising why.......or maybe none of that.........that's just speculation though. ;-). > Free will is, in my opinion, a much used and little understood term. Yes, I'm sure that is true. Maybe we don't know the half of it yet. Kind regards, Glyn Reply | Forward

#2845

From: mike reid Date: Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:32 pm Subject: RE: Re: P-I-A magazine mikr46 Hello Glyn!! I have been following the exchanges on this subject and have a question. The story implies hat the decisions on the shoes were made at the time the woman put on the shoes. However, perhaps the 'decision' was actually 'made' unconsciously (at least statistically significant) at the time of the bet or before the session was actually conducted. Only the final acceptance of the decision was made at the time of actually putting the shoes on! I find hard to accept the any woman would wait to think about what she was going to wear until the last moment! LOL However, only the last time was there a move to "force' and error. Actually, I think she finally changed her decision!! As for the free will issue, I agree. I am not able to solve what phase of the mind that 'free will' might be defined. I keep running into 'boundary conditions' In any event, Am I all wet here? Mike ------------------------------ Moderator's note: You must know only high-maintenance women, LOL. I know rather few women who think about what they're going to wear prior to having to actually put it on. I mean unless it's a new date. ;-) PJ Reply | Forward

#2876

From: "Glyn" Date: Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:35 pm Subject: RE: Re: P-I-A magazine gebega Hi Mike, > I find hard to accept > the any woman would wait to think about what she was > going to wear until the last moment! LOL!! I agree with PJ, but even if the woman had planned in advance I don't think it would have mattered, as the important thing was the outcome on the day, and that was what the viewer was concentrating on; he didn't care about events in between. > I am not able to > solve what phase of the mind that 'free will' might be > defined. I keep running into 'boundary conditions' In > any event, Am I all wet here? Phew not at all Mike, I sometimes twist myself into knots trying to think of such things...part of the fun of it :-). Regards, Glyn Reply | Forward

#2892

From: mike reid Date: Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:53 pm Subject: RE: Re: P-I-A magazine mikr46 Hi Glyn!> > LOL!! I agree with PJ, but even if the woman had > planned in advance I don't think it would have > mattered, as the important thing was the outcome on > the day, and that was what the viewer was > concentrating on; he didn't care about events in > between. I understand what is said. You are assuming the decision is made at the 'time'of the 'day'and it was a 'conscious' decision. My point is the 'decision' the woman made was made before the viewer session - perhaps at the time of making the bet and perhap only in the unconcious. That 'decision' would have been read. Yes, the decision could be changed on the 'day' but wasn't. Same for the second day. Only the third decision was changed AFTER the viewing. That was done on a conscious level and affected the unconscious level. It is a question of 'when' the decision was made. Am I making myself clearer? Best Regards! Mike __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com Reply | Forward

#2903

From: "Glyn" Date: Sun Mar 30, 2003 4:13 am Subject: Reply to Mike's mail (warning...long :-) gebega Hi Mike, I hope the following answers your mail; as well as I am able to anyway. Please bear in mind that this is all my opinion/speculation, and I am not saying I am right about anything here. In fact I may be totally up the wrong stream with the wrong paddle, but heck it's fun. LOL! Thanks for being interested enough to ask questions because that forces me to think things through. > You said: > You are assuming the decision is made at the 'time' > of the 'day' and it was a 'conscious' decision. > .................. Not necessarily Mike, I didn't really think of the decision as being made at any particular time really (except for the third one), and yes you are right in that Mary could have made them (consciously or subconsciously) at any time after the bet was made (If she was psychic maybe before, but I'm just not going to go there :-)). IMO as far as the predictions on those first two days were concerned it wouldn't matter when the decision was made. When Jim saw the shoes in 'real time' on each of those days, he would have formed a memory, and this is what he would have accessed during back when doing his sessions. The third day, now you are right.... that was something else! On the surface of it Jim was probably on course to make a hit there too, but when Pat viewed his session (must have been the evening or morning before the third day, but it doesn't say), then Mary chose to wear purple shoes rather than the tennis shoes that Pat said Jim had put down in his session. (A couple of brilliant RVers weren't they ?:-))). Again I don't think it mattered whether Mary had already decided to wear the tennis shoes or not, only that after Pat's session she decided to wear something different. Now how can that be? If precognition does work by our accessing our memories after the event has taken place in the future then it appears to fall down badly here because Jim got the wrong shoes. It could be said that he hadn't gone forward far enough and picked up his actual memory of the final event (seeing the purple shoes).....but if he had done so then Pat should have seen that in her session anyway and something else would have been chosen. Basically Jim was going to be wrong anyway, no matter what, and it seems like a sort of loop would be set up, a paradox...and that can't be right. However, if Jim was accessing the actual event rather than just a memory of it, or tuning into a 'matrix' or using telepathy or whatever, he would still have been wrong that third time, sot still does not rule out FM, I am glad to say :-). Of course this is only a story, but I guess with good enough viewers it is *conceivable* this sort of thing could take place......so what on earth could be going on that third time? To recap...Jim was 'forced' to be wrong by Pat viewing his session. Pat would (IMO) have been accessing her own future memory of what Jim's session contained, she would have focussed her intent to do that (OK, it doesn't comply with 'double blind' procedure, but maybe if a viewer is good enough and focused enough it doesn't have to :-)....so that still 'fits' with my thinking, but we are still left with the problem of why (or more to the point *where*) did Jim pick up the memory that Mary would be wearing tennis shoes on the third day, when that was clearly not the case?! This is intriguing, and in another mail to Trypper I was sort of thinking aloud as I was typing, and was wondering about 'probable futures' and reaching a 'crossroads'. It brought to mind something I've heard one of the military viewers talk about. I can't remember which guy it was, but others may remember his story. It was a scenario where a viewer did a session to find where a criminal would be at a certain time, so that the police could pick him up. The viewer did just that, and the police picked up the baddie........but this immediately made the viewer's session wrong, because the criminal never reached the place the viewer saw him at at all ...because the police had picked him up just before he got there! It was something like that anyway. I don't know if it was a true story or just speculation, but there may well be cases where this has happened, and I would love to know. Mind bending isn't it? Well, the same sort of thing is happening in our story. Jim was right, but he was also wrong...........and I'm going to stop there for the moment, because this is a whole new ballgame and I haven't been able to think it through yet. IMO it will fit in with the FM concept, it's just working out how. LOL!!! Any thoughts? Kind regards, Glyn Reply | Forward

#2870

From: "stanley01420" Date: Tue Mar 25, 2003 8:44 am Subject: Re: more on Future Memory stanley01420 > In future memory theory (to explain how precognition > may work) an event is > not accessed directly ....only our memory of it > having happened, Ok... I don't really get this part. I've experienced both. I've accessed an event directly (that I couldn't possibly remember because I wasn't physically present at the time) and I've also remembered things that haven't happened yet. Do we know enough about how precognition works yet to makes these kinds of differentiations? I mean.. do scientists? > and this > can be distorted, muddled, confused and even > downright wrong depending on > the stage at which we accessed that memory (Too > close to the event and we may > be wonderfully correct as the memory would be clear, > but also we could be > completely wrong if we picked up a probability and > the final outcome was > going to be changed; as happened in the story. Well... isn't that RI? I mean, isn't that how RI works... by seeing an event and deliberately choosing an alternate probability in order to consciously select an alternate final outcome? > Too far forward and the > memories may be vague, distorted, morphed, muddied > and maybe mixed with > imagination.....and towards the end of our lifetime > our memories may be > fading or even worse ). But.. the only thing is.. that assumes that time makes a difference and .. well, I just figure that precognition doesn't work in time at all. That's what is so wierd about it. > Continuing on from that...we have to use our 'real-time' memory in order > to absorb and 'bring back' the data retrieved from our memories down the > road in the future, and if a viewer has a very good memory in the present, > then it stands to reason, barring accidents, that his memory in the future > is going to be the same (or even better if he is training it). I've always > thought that a trained Intel operative would be bound to have a head-start > in that respect. That may or may not have been a consideration., or perhaps > it was just observed to work better for those with trained memories without > fully realising why.......or maybe none of that.........that's just > speculation though. ;-). You know what though? That may not necessarily be the case .. well, I'm not disputing the research at all but it just occurred to me that memory is a process and not a storage area for data. And it's kind of selective. In other words, having a bad memory kind of means that you are not keeping your hard drive cluttered up with a lot of meaningless data so that when you need to process something important .. well, I don't actually know what I'm talking about.. :-) But I really enjoy talking to you Glyn.. you are very interesting. regards, trypper Reply | Forward

#2894

From: "Glyn" Date: Thu Mar 27, 2003 5:02 pm Subject: RE: Re: more on Future Memory gebega Hi Trypper, -----Original Message----- From: stanley01420 [mailto:the.stanleys....net] > In future memory theory (to explain how precognition > may work) an event is > not accessed directly ....only our memory of it > having happened, You said.......... Ok... I don't really get this part. I've experienced both. I've accessed an event directly (that I couldn't possibly remember because I wasn't physically present at the time) and I've also remembered things that haven't happened yet. ............................................................................ ............................................................ Well the information you got at feedback time, together with any other info about the site that you have been privy to since that time, all 'paint' a pretty good picture in your memory. Anything you can remember about the event/site at this *very moment* and up until the day you die, your sub could have been able to access back then when you did the session. The sub, or whatever does the retrieval work, appears to be unhampered by linear time, and if our minds/memories are non-local then it could be significant. Anyway, because of the detail in your memory it may have appeared that you had been physically present. It may also have something to do with the ability of each individuals brain to pull all the information together into a clear impression in their memories. Some may be really good at it, and may even have the impression of bilocation. Just my opinions. You said....... and I've also remembered things that haven't happened yet. ............................................................................ ........................................................ I'm not quite sure what you mean by that Trypper, but according to FM theory it is the memories you will make in the future after the things you talk about have happened that are the memories accessed back in time when you did your session or had your precognition. I think Sean O'Donnell (He wrote 'Future Memory and Time') called it 'pre-call'. ............................................................................ ........................................................ You said: Do we know enough about how precognition works yet to makes these kinds of differentiations? I mean.. do scientists? ............................................................................ ........................................................ Probably not. I don't know. Some may be considering whether future memory may figure in the 'scheme of things', but there are probably more who are not. It's all in a state of flux at the moment I think. I know Dunne was a scientist, but he is long dead, and none of his peers took much notice of him anyway (he was a man ahead of his time :-)...and Sean O'Donnell is a scientist, but I don't know much about him or if he is still active in that area. There are quite a few scientists out there looking at how precognition works, and maybe future memory theory will turn out to be a blind alley; maybe not, it deserves looking at though. The idea just intrigues me personally that's all, and I like discussing it, together with all the other ideas and opinions of how psi-perception may actually work. > and this > can be distorted, muddled, confused and even > downright wrong depending on > the stage at which we accessed that memory (Too > close to the event and we may > be wonderfully correct as the memory would be clear, > but also we could be > completely wrong if we picked up a probability and > the final outcome was > going to be changed; as happened in the story. You said: Well... isn't that RI? I mean, isn't that how RI works... by seeing an event and deliberately choosing an alternate probability in order to consciously select an alternate final outcome? ................................ Yes, and that is very intriguing indeed isn't it? To detect a probability 'crossroads' as it were, and then with the right nudge to push things one way or another. I guess that's what the second viewer would have been doing when she RVed the first viewer's session. It was a crossroads of her own making whether she thought of it that way or not, and when she persuaded the girl to wear different shoes then the outcome was (apparently) altered. There is a bit of a paradox here, as far as future memory theory is concerned, and it needs thinking through. Maybe once a 'crossroads' occurs then you can't access any memories further down the line until the outcome has been resolved, because there aren't any until you pass that point.., maybe that's why 'psi' is so damned unreliable :-). Anyway, I would have thought that the first viewer (if he was as good as said in the story) ,should have spotted that something was 'afoot' (excuse the pun LOL!), or at least picked up elements of both shoes as he reached this crossroads, but he didn't. But then again this was only a story, and maybe in real life things would have been different. Anyone care to set up that experiment and let me know? :-) Anyway, I'm rambling now Trypper, thinking as I go along, and it's complete rubbish so I'd better stop. Thanks for the compliment though :-)) When I'm thinking about psi and tying myself in knots in the process I often think of a little 'ditty' my husband sings when he feels really stressed out and frustrated with something. It's very apt I think :-) The bear climbed over the mountain The bear climbed over the mountain And what do you think he saw? He saw another mountain He saw another mountain And what do you think he did? The bear climbed over the mountain...... Grins, Glyn

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