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pjrv : Messages : 1608-1626 of 4038
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#1608

From: "David Humphries" Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 11:48 am Subject: Re: Re: OBE experiences a_healey56 Hey PJ, My last post was experiential. Where's my star? :-) Dave --------------------------- Moderator's note: LOL. Actually the list has been really terrific the last six weeks or so, I have to admit, and you're part of that. :-) PJ Reply | Forward

#1626

From: Karl Boyken Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 9:47 am Subject: Re: Re: OBE experiences kboyken > I like the rainbow analogy. I will mention one > other "band" experience. This spectrum-of-consciousness idea sounds a lot like the Monroe focus levels, too. -- Karl Boyken kboyken...t http://soli.inav.net/~kboyken/ We dance 'round in a ring and suppose, while the Secret sits in the middle and knows. --Robert Frost pjrv : Messages : 1600-1676 of 4038
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#1600

From: "Scott Ellis" Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 12:23 am Subject: OBE experiences scottrver Anyone with OBE experience? Is it common in OBE experiences to see the room you are in, but something's a little wrong with it? I think I had my second OBE two nights ago but I'm not quite sure - starting from a lucid dream this time. To check if I was dreaming I jumped in the air to fly like superman. Something happened as never before and I somehow found myself in my bedroom floating on my back about a foot above the bed. It sure didn't seem like a lucid dream anymore. Everything seemed exceptionally real but when I looked at the wall, light landed on it in a pattern that wasn't quite right for coming through the window. I was more than a bit startled, as in scared, by the unexpected sequence of events and so I decided to end it by wiggling my toes and I immediately was in my body and awake. I forgot to look beneath me so I didn't get a chance to see if my wife and I were there. Again I'm not quite sure what this was, but I've never had a lucid dream like this and I was definitely conscious. By the way, this occurred the same day I had read an article that resulted in me deciding I was open to having an OBE again. Scott Reply | Forward

#1602

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 2:02 am Subject: Re: OBE experiences docsavagebill Hi Scott, Eve or Nita should comment.. but all the experts I've read indicate that imaginary elements occur in OBE's and even NDE's. According to people like Bruce..the OBE world is actually an inner "reconstruction" of the real world. A model that resembles the Matrix actually. So having some things off or AOL is reasonable..or may indicate intrusion of other astral realities. There is also no clear demarcation between a lucid dream and an OBE..it seems a coninuum IMO. It brings to mind a favorite OBE, which was verified intermally by a meeting OBE with another OBEer who later verified it. In that OBE my conciousness divided into three separate scenes... . part was still in trance in bed... part was OBE meeting another OBEer..and part was having a lucid dream of being at the opera.all at the same time...G Best Regards, Bill Reply | Forward

#1610

From: "Sharon Webb" Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 2:26 pm Subject: Re: OBE experiences sharwebb_30512 Scott, Sounds like an OBE to me. The "room" you find yourself in is usually an astral creation, so it does differ some from your "real" room. Sharon sharwebb...net www.fractalus.com/sharon Reply | Forward

#1603

From: "PJ Gaenir" Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 10:49 am Subject: Re: OBE experiences dennanm Hiya Scott, (And a gold star for posting 'experientially', lol.) > Anyone with OBE experience? I have a lot more OBE experience than RV experience. I suppose because RV by nature of the term is deliberate, whereas OBE is usually spontaneous. I'm not any good at *deliberately* OBEing, but have on occasion. In my experience it's highly correlated with the ability to dream lucidly in some respects; the 'cycles' of them both usually come together for me. McMoneagle notes he thinks LD's are often the 'jumping off points' for OBE's. I did both all my life and was really astonished when I grew up and discovered this wasn't normal for everybody. And that some people didn't even "believe in" one or both! LOL! That just seemed so crazy! Like disagreeing that the sky looked blue or something! > Is it common in OBE experiences to see the room you are in, > but something's a little wrong with it? Yes - not wrong, just different than in your 'normal' state. > starting from a lucid dream this time. A lot of people tend to invalidate OBE's if they begin from a dream state. So many do, though, that this invalidates the majority of what most people have of them. I assume most people -- at least I can, and always could -- can tell the difference between a dream and an OBE. > To check if I was dreaming I jumped in the air to fly like > superman. Something happened as never before and I somehow found > myself in my bedroom floating on my back about a foot above the > bed. It sure didn't seem like a lucid dream anymore. Sounds like you jumped in the air all right. ;-) > I've never had a lucid dream like this and I was definitely > conscious. Although lucid dreams can often seem even realer-than-real somehow, the difference between an LD and a regular OBE is usually pretty clear to the person experiencing it. I remember early in the RV online days a lot of people insisted that RV and OBE's were the same thing. I had to humorously conclude that they had obviously never *had* an OBE or they would know the difference. It is pretty distinctive and does not happen while you are writing something on paper - that is 'dissociation' [to the degree of traveling clairvoyance which is an entirely different thing, though it has a couple similar effects]. > By the way, this occurred the same day I had read an article > that resulted in me deciding I was open to having an OBE again. Cool! You see, you ask, you get! :-) As for the "something being wrong" with your room, how you interpret that really depends on your own experience and which expert you listen to. Some will suggest that anything that doesn't properly match "this" reality is imagination or basically a dream or sorts within the OBE state. Though some of that might exist, as far as it being a general explanation, I disagree with that - a lot. In my experience, our consciousness is a whole spectrum of frequency - I call it "The Rainbow of Soul." It's a continuum and a "gradient scale" where PERCEPTION exists at all points but as far as the "you" you know as you, ATTENTION is the moving point. Consider "you" in this model to be a rainbow -- white light, divided into frequency-bands like color, a whole spectrum. Consider the physical reality we know to be "red"; astral as some call it to be "orange"; mental as some call it to be "yellow"; and so on. It is not that only the red-band is 'aware' - "you". "YOU" are a larger entity that encompasses the entire spectrum - and interacts constantly, with potentially infinite levels of reality experience throughout that spectrum. In this gradient spectrum, every smallest shade between red and orange - many that are varying %s of both colors - is its own "active perception" which interacts with what it perceives to be reality. From red to orange there may be 1001 options in other words - very subtle shades of color/tone (frequency) difference. Within the "red band" -- the "I" that I know -- is actually a heck of a 'range' of subtle shades of identity. There is not just "one" perception that is "me" and everything else is some kind of hallucination. "I" as a body span some of the red band and am physically equipped to perceive most of what I consider the rest of it. But it's a 'span' of frequency. My attention -- "where" I am perceiving "from" within that red-band's smaller spectrum -- varies. Sometimes, the physical world seems incredibly crisp; clear. High- definition life. I believe this is when our *attention* is most solidly centered in the span of frequency that the things we perceive in this reality are within. Tangibility comes in degrees. Sometimes, things seem more distant. Unreal. Sure, this is state of mind -- but it is 'attention' -- the attention wanders not just 20 minutes into the future but wanders away like a HAM radio moving slightly out of phase with its station - it's still heard, but is fainter, less differentiated. The concept of "grounding" is essentially the concept of "centering within this red frequency band". Getting as close to the 'real' - to the 'physically vivid' - as possible. Calling yourself, your attention, back "home." We as an entity are a lot larger and more aware than we give ourselves credit for. And we know this I think, as babies I suspect we are already existing and interacting on many levels of consciousness even though we are just beginning "here" (in the red band). In my perception, any of the 'color bands' can "unmanifest" (like when someone dies, the red 'unmanifests') and then "remanifest" however it pleases -- the larger entity (soul, if you want to call it that) is not at all diminished by such an event. White light is still white light, whether or not it has chosen to prism into a rainbow, or of what particular shades at any given time. Using a different allegory, imagine we are playing Monopoly. When my perception "leaves my body," it is not like my little car moved from where it was lying in bed on Baldwin Ave. and hopped 11 spaces over to Tennessee Ave. Rather, *I am the whole board. I perceive from every place. Every color all the way around is ME.* So, I simply decide to "be" the top hat which "exists at" Tennessee Ave. _I perceive reality "through that part of me."_ Now, say Tennessee Ave. is in the orange band -- and I clearly "FEEL" that I have a body there. However, I can very clearly FEEL that it is not as solid/heavy as "the part of me which exists in the red band", and I can physically move my perception of self in ways that I can't in the red band -- I can physically move my 'orange-band-body' right out of the general same-space it usually shares with the red band part of me, and I can FEEL the 'separation' of myself. Contrary to what most people seem sure is the case, the body does not cease to perceive when "we" leave it. In fact one of the most bizarre experiences I ever had was a fully conscious OBE when for the first time ever, "I" -- my ATTENTION -- remained with the part of me that was in the body, and the REST of me left! I'd never even considered such a thing! -- However, the perception we consider normal is a very multi-dimensional thing, as this made clear; the separate perception is much more limited when our attention bilocates that literally. When our attention comes back (from an OBE) into the red-band, our brain -- which for our sanity works very hard to maintain a single, reasonably linear stream of 'memory' -- decides what to accept as the linear reality for that period we call time. There is good reason for the mind to be selective and only remember ONE "reality" "at a time". Now say you are lying in bed and you are dreaming -- you are likely "perceiving through the part of you which is in the YELLOW (mental) band" at that time. It has its own lives -- and as there are so many degrees of yellow, it actually has MANY of them. That is why in dreams we often (at least I do!) know "our world" there - we have lived there all our life -- it is a concurrent identity, it's simply that since we spend 99.9% of our time paying attention to the red band, only once in a a great while do we drop into paying attention to level 412 of the yellow band, where we happen to be person or entity X with Y situation and these Z people we have known our entire lives-there. When we wake up -- our attention back in the red band -- we think, "I've dreamed about that world before." Sure. It's always there. We ALWAYS perceive there. We are ALWAYS dreaming, we are ALWAYS in the astral, we are ALWAYS in the physical. We don't move from one to another spacially, we move our *attention* from one to the other. Our physical brain only (usually) allows the MEMORY of one thing at a time is all. Sometimes briefly, people become aware of more than one level of perception at a time. They may be dreaming, traveling astrally, and repairing cells, and there may in fact be 2,411,247 OTHER "levels of perception" going on at the same time -- but their mind may for a moment become aware of more than one -- maybe two or three at the most -- simultaneously. When people do this on waking up or falling asleep they usually consider it an anomaly and some kind of split-brain imagination. But when you have this happen to you for fairly extended periods - at least a couple minutes - when you are wide awake, repeatedly, you begin to realize that this is not just hallucination -- all these existences are valid and simultaneous and all "you". They are just not "here" as we think of here. I hope I've explained the concepts enough that what I say following, responding to your comment about the room being different, will then make sense. It has to be considered in the 'framework' of the theory explained. Our "attention" can ripple through the many shades of our rainbow-of- soul like it is water. Our attention can move from red (physical) to orange (astral) to yellow (dream) and back again. It can split into separate points-of-attention, and we are aware simultaneously in two 'places' (points of perception) at once. What happens when someone is capable of splitting the attention but both parts are in the red-band of the physical? I suspect this ties into the legend of some saints able to 'be more than one place at a time'. They may not have been aware they were doing it, but I believe it is possible, though rare for "attention" to be developed to that degree. When you have an OBE -- better phrased, when you become aware of yourself as separate from your physical body (your *attention* "moved") -- you may still be "in the bandwidth of the physical plane." You might be perceiving from a part of the Scott- Spectrum which is somewhere between red and orange -- more orange than red, but still also "in" the red band. You may see "reality" around you pretty much like you did when you were IN your body. As your perception moves more toward the astral (orange) on the spectrum, the "reality" you perceive will change. First, things may seem mostly the same yet slightly variant. A chair may be in a different place. Your coat may be on the back of the chair, rather than lying on the bed. As you continue toward astral, more significant changes may be clear, and some features of "normal reality" may disappear from your perception. You begin to perceive more of the reality -- and the life -- there, and less of what is here. You may see your cat who died years before, sleeping on your bed. You may encounter entities, or discover that the tree outside your house seems to be sentient. The farther you go into this bandwidth, the more different things become. At some point, you will lose most if not all perception of what we would call "our physical reality" (the red band) because your perception has moved outside that range (fully into the orange band). It is not that you were just hallucinating the cat, or that the chair was in a different place. If you imagine the spectrum-of-self as a Kaleidascope, it's just that when you slightly shift that tube, even though it's all the same little colored pieces of energy that make up the picture of reality, they are now in a slightly different relationship to each other. The picture is slightly different. The farther you turn the tube -- or the farther you move your attention -- the more different it is going to look, until "by degrees", finally the pattern is wholly different. (Same energy. Different pattern, as it's a different 'focus'.) The more "in the "physical" bandwidth" you are, the more you can physically feel things that you touch. "Here" as we know it, if you walk up to a wall and don't stop, you're going to feel it painfully when you run into it. In the orange band, you may go right through a wall, and feel it as if your body were made of water, or some solid- yet-not-solid substance. Entities that touch you may register quite physically to your perception, as if they were totally solid and yet somehow were able to reach inside your body. As your perception moves more into the astral and then yellow band, you may cease to be aware of any physical feelings; you can pass through the wall as if it is not even there. It is just a change in "where" in yourself you are perceiving "from". The farther from the red band you get, the less one tends to be aware of a physical body. As you move further toward the mental (yellow) bandwidth, things continue to change. For example, you may not only not FEEL the wall you pass through, it might not even exist, and you may find that the moment you think of something -- for instance, your friend in another city -- suddenly either your friend is "there with you" or you are somewhere else with your friend. Awareness of form, such as one's body, may often vanish altogether. You still may operate as if you have a form, you simply may not be pointedly aware of it. I don't know anything about the green-blue-indigo-violet bands of the rainbow analogy; I only have experience with the red-to-yellow, or physical-astral-mental as some metaphysics calls them. However, I do believe that we exist just as thoroughly throughout that spectrum as we do those I've described. (Some of the above text I lifted from my case study 'Bewilderness' which talked about this.) I believe the polarized "separation" of "different bodies," like coats on a coat rack we put on lol, is logical if new to the experience, but when one lives constantly in and out of OBE and astral states much of their life, the perception of how it all works tends to change a little, become less black and white and separated, less a matter of "going there" than "always being there and simply choosing to pay attention to it briefly". Sorcerors, shamans, magicians, and others work to intensify, clarify, and improve their "attention" -- their focus, and "how much it can hold". Concurrent with this development tends to come a lot of experiences that are considered 'unusual' by the masses, such as OBE's, psychic info, meeting entities, etc. I believe it is merely a matter of the attention opening up and strengthening and allowing 'more' into our awareness than merely the red band stuff. I think the more we practice remote viewing and anything else that forces both attention and awareness and openness to perceiving info from 'outside' the red band alone, the more we develop these aspects of ourselves, and more spontaneous experiences that arise. I will end this with a true account of an OBE that I had about eight years ago. I had been sleeping on my friend's living room floor on cushions and in a sleeping bag. I woke up and laid there for awhile. It was early morning. My friend M. was already up, and was sitting quietly about 15' from me at the kitchen table, balancing her checkbook I believe. I had turned my head slightly to look at her, and was wondering if I should let her know I was awake, or lie there awhile more as I was comfortable. I turned my eyes back to the ceiling and thought, maybe I should get up. I dunno... I don't really want to yet. Then I rolled over to look at M. again -- and rolled right out of my body by accident. I was surprised as it was unexpected, but it wasn't a big deal (as I mentioned, I'd had OBEs my whole life). But the part that surprised me was, lying there just slightly turned out of my physical body, she was sitting at the table, checkbook there -- but she was turned to the side, and there were three people there -- one in full-on native (amerind) gear, feathers and the whole nine yards -- talking with her. I couldn't hear them, but I understood that I just wasn't quite in the right 'place' to perceive that and could be if I tried. I was thinking to myself, "Just slide out of body and it's like this close-parallel, yet different, reality, that is SO interesting!" I rolled back into my body. "Now that was odd," I thought. "What a great example of how the levels vary," I was thinking. I turned only my head back to M. and looked at her. She sat quietly working on her checkbook. I looked back up at the ceiling and thought -- "I gotta see." So I rolled out of my body again, and sure enough, there they all were, and her turned, talking with them. I looked at them for awhile, musing about a bit, and thinking to myself how interesting it was that she was in the same place, for example, in both 'realities'. It really made me wonder how much of our lives are not nearly as ... 'spontaneous and independent' as we think. Did she sit in that chair because she wanted to, or because various other aspects of her were sitting in it, as if that called her to be comfortable with doing that in some way? I rolled back in my body. I then went to roll out again -- but alas, was too awake due to all my fascinated left brain consideration, and my physical body turned too -- I was too grounded by then. Of course that is only one of a life's worth of OBEs, but it's an example: I would not for a moment consider that the "differences" in my environment were one of a dream, imagination, hallucination, or confusion. Yes, things were different -- as they usually are -- but I believe that is a matter of the sliding scale of our perception. The farther away from center-red-band you get, the more things will change, sometimes little things, sometimes major things. It is just a slight turn of the kaleidascope tube. The energy is arranged, perceived, manifested (visible) differently. PJ Reply | Forward

#1612

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 1:50 pm Subject: Re: Re: OBE experiences docsavagebill Hi PJ, Beautiful essay on your astral experiences. I like the rainbow analogy. I will mention one other "band " experience. I was just waking up.. and comming from a very deep delta sleep to a groggy awake state.. I became aware that each stage of awakening was a world unto its own. At just ONE frequency/one shade/..there was a tremendous erotic tug.. which disappeared as I came more towards awake.. Wierd! So I meditated back down to nearly asleep again.. still peaceful and came up more slowly..nothing at the deeper states,, but right at about the midway point from sleep to awake..there it was again!.. I held at that point but could see or hear nothing..but it was full of eros. Slowly a pencil line started sketching something over the top of me.. Like a Ouiga working on its own.. I had no idea what it was sketching..until almost finished and the outline of a female figure appeared over me.. and details started being penciled in...! This surprised me so much I lost my hold on the window of reality and awoke! But the whole experience was just in one THIN slice of conciousness between awake and asleep on little shade of orange. Made me wonder what was going on in the whole spectrum any given night. Bill* Reply | Forward

#1640

From: "Scott Ellis" Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 11:40 pm Subject: Re: OBE experiences scottrver Thanks to all who replied to my post. It's funny, I've read a reasonable amount about OBEs but it was very nice to get some first hand feedback from others. Somehow reading about it just doesn't strike home as powerfully as the experience. It's just not as subtle as RV. Anyway, your responses helped validate and ground the experience quite a bit and and I'm very appreciative. PJ, I really enjoyed your perspective on the fine granularity of the OBE spectrum. Regards to all, Scott Reply | Forward

#1621

From: "Nita Hickok" Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 1:13 pm Subject: Re: OBE experiences nitahickok Hi Scott Light will look different at times in a OBE if you are seeing the energy involved in the sunlight. You will find when you OBE that it will have extra senses that you use. Emotions come through as colors along with the words. It can be abstract at times but a lot of times it is just all of the extra information that can be picked up. I have been able to OBE for as long as I can remember. I have helped quite a few people out of the bodies so they can project. I think most people project and don't remember it. They are really doing it all of the time without knowing what is going on until they have a moment where they have to admit that it isn't a dream. Nita Reply | Forward

#1676

From: "Eva " Date: Sun Dec 8, 2002 3:30 pm Subject: Re: OBE experiences k9caninek9 > Scott wrote: > Is it common in OBE experiences to see the room you are in, but > something's a little wrong with it? Yes, it's very common. There are a million theories about why that happens. One of the popular ones is that you are in the etheric plane which is just removed from the physical plane and although it looks similar, it is more influenced by random thoughts and so can vary a bit from the physical. > I think I had my second OBE two nights ago ...[snip]... > never had a lucid dream like this and I was definitely conscious. You are describing classic OBE stuff. IMO, the diff between OBE and lucid dream in not easily demarcated. It may well be more an issue of a continuum than a readily defined line. That's my current theory anyway! -E pjrv : Messages : 1620-1791 of 4038
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#1620

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 7:20 pm Subject: Re: OBE Experiences ozblueriver Hi everyone, I think I've had an OBE as well. I have wondered if it was an OBE or something else. Just like Scott, I had read something to do with OBE's and went to bed willing to have one of my own. After I settled into a relaxed state I heard a sound similar to the roar of the ocean. I kept calm and told myself that this was it and to roll out of my body. I rolled out but I was in the house I lived it as a teenager. I got up out of bed fully aware and went into the next room where my mum was sitting. (Mum died 4 years ago.) She couldn't see me so I tilted the painting on the wall. That got her attention so I tilted it again. She watched it in fascination. I didn't want to scare her so I decided to go back to my normal body. I tripped over a hat stand on my way which caused it to fall. I then got back into my body and woke up. The whole time I was totally aware that I was attempting and succeeding to have an OBE but I have been under the impression that OBE's were confined to the present time and space. I would love to know if mum ever saw that painting move and our hat stand fall. Wouldn't that be a spin out. So my question is.....Can OBE's happen in the past or future? Oh, and by the way, has anyone experienced a painting as a 3D world? Once I was in an altered state and entered into one of the paintings on my wall. It became a beautiful world all of it's own. Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#1629

From: "Nita Hickok" Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 4:58 am Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences nitahickok Hello Elizabeth You can go back in the past or future with a OBE. It is amazing all the things that you can do. You can also go into a 3d painting. I have gone into a drop of water before it is whatever you feel like doing and what you have the talent for doing. Nita > Elizabeth wrote: > So my question is.....Can OBE's happen in the past or future? > Oh, and by the way, has anyone experienced a painting as a 3D world? Reply | Forward

#1632

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 5:12 pm Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences ozblueriver Hi Nita, Thanks for answering my questions. That solves one mystery for me. I have another question, well actually I have thousands, but if you could answer one more I'd be really grateful. LOL Every night I go to bed and close my eyes. After a few minutes I'm off flying. I never feel myself leave my body but I'm fully aware and in control. My surroundings are always crystal clear. Everything seems even clearer and brighter than normal. Is that OBE too or something else? Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#1638

From: "Nita Hickok" Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 8:29 pm Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences nitahickok Hello Elizabeth A lot of times the dreams where you are flying and use more layers to interpret it can be OBE's. A lot of people don't notice how they leave their bodies. I would keep a dream journal and that way you will know in time whether you are projecting or not. Most people know right away but some don't. Nita Reply | Forward

#1643

From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m Date: Fri Dec 6, 2002 1:43 am Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences maliolana Aloha Liz, Yes I do see most photos as alive...moving...as long as any type of energy form is present...IE: machines/plants/biologicals/people /animals/aliens(G)) even rocks/valcanoes...water That diving into other worlds is how I usually felt when reading an excellant book...or daydreaming...I always felt such disollution when a wonderful book/daydream ends...Just as if I had lost an important part of my life...Just for a short while...I feel psi as a similiar bi location exercise...at some level or other... I have managed many wonderful things in daydream...but I never considered them under the umbrella of OOB before...and I have had future dreams that came true...eventually...many years later...and they were only slightly fantasized...altered from the future reality... I don't know if I have ever oobed before...I am still not completely sure I understsnd it... Love & Light & Laughter Mali'o...aka...Dawna Reply | Forward

#1645

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Fri Dec 6, 2002 5:58 am Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences ozblueriver G'day Nita, > A lot of times the dreams where you are flying > and use more layers to interpret it can be OBE's. > A lot of people don't notice how they leave their > bodies. I would keep a dream journal and that way > you will know in time whether you are projecting > or not. Most people know right away but some don't. when I go to bed and fly I'm fully awake and fully aware. There is no dreaminess about it at all. It is exactly the same as real life, but clearer and slightly brighter. It takes me quite a while to go to sleep so I amuse myself by flying while I wait. I just close my eyes and there is the other world. I do have to change focus though. It actually took me a while to learn how to turn it off so I could choose to see nothing when I close my eyes if I wanted to. From what you and others have said it seems that I have been under the wrong impression about OBE's. I have always thought they were: 1. a vary rare thing 2.You were supposed to be aware of leaving your body. 3. they were confined to this time and space. I had a lucid dream recently which was totally different. I was aware I was dreaming and knew I could change what ever I liked within the dream. My flying is different again. It is just the same as real life except I can fly. And rather than changing anything, like you can in a lucid dream, it's more a case of I can direct myself to go wherever I want to, such as over hill and dale or into space. It's a very cheap way to travel. LOL I'm laughing at myself because I have wanted to OBE for years and now it seems to be that I've been doing it for years every night before I go to sleep. LOL What a goose I am! I'll be laughing about this for a week. I'm having the new experience of being able to put nice little labels on everything I do. :) Thanks for your help. I appreciate it. Have a groovy day Liz -------------------------- Moderator's note: There's a couple other possibilities I suspect. One is sometimes referred to as traveling clairvoyance, where people have the sensation they are flying and looking down over the region they are choosing to explore (this can happen in RV as well and usually is a sign of major target contact when it happens I think). And, I am not sure what our 'internal' landscapes are capable of or consist of. For years I did structured archetype meditations, which as part of their nature are sort of another, deliberately constructed little piece of world. Well what was funny was, one day an archetype (my sun), took me to someplace I had never been before in this world -I mean it was quite literally its own world, replete with people and buildings and so forth, it was a highly 'autonomous' experience led by the archetype and I was completely blown away. It had never much occurred to me that beyond my little garden of sacred space, I could be led a couple miles through a field, onto an elevated 2' 'moving sidewalk', which went on for quite some ways and moved into a town, and in the town we got off (some steps down), and went up this cobblestone street (streets were off the sidewalk in both directions, like it was the only form of transport besides walking), and into this building at the end which was a hotel or something like that, and back to the elevator and up, and down the hall to the room at the end... it was so astonishingly REAL, and I was wide awake mind you in the meditation, though during that time I did seem to have a lot of Delta, judging by the oddities in my reality... I seriously didn't know what to think about that, still don't. I guess I could call it a dream reality - those meds are 'conscious dreaming'. But it really felt like it was a real place with life of its own and I was just there, as opposed to my wholly creating it (most of it I paid no attention to). It has kind of left me wondering, just how many 'worlds' there are, and how we might interact with them. -- PJ Reply | Forward

#1698

From: "Eva " Date: Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:22 am Subject: Re: OBE Experiences k9caninek9 > Liz wrote: > it seems that I have been under > the wrong impression about OBE's. > I have always thought they were: > 1. a vary rare thing Actually, standard OBE lore has it that you have them all the time at night, but just do not transfer the memory to the concious mind. It's bringing the conscious mind with you that's the rare part. > 2.You were supposed to be aware of leaving your body. No, this gets missed a lot of the time. > 3. they were confined to this time and space. No discernable limits have been found. Looks like you can definitely transcent time and space, kinda the same rules as RV, except no one will tell you that it's not OBE without feedback. LOL! > I had a lucid dream recently which was > totally different. [snip] > And rather than changing anything, > like you can in a lucid dream, it's > more a case of I can direct myself to go > erever I want to, such as over hill and > dale or into space. It's a very cheap way > to travel. LOL If you have LDs, you can use them as a launch for OBEs. It's much easier from an LD, maybe cuz LDs are are close state to OBEs. They way I do it is is run or fly into any fence or wall or tree that exists in the dream and I tell myself that when I hit the barrier, I will burst out of the dream and into an OBE. Try it, it's loads of fun! > I'm laughing at myself because I have > wanted to OBE for years and now it > seems to be that I've been doing it for > years every night before I go to sleep. > LOL What a goose I am! I'll be laughing > about this for a week. I think like anything, OBE seems to exist on a continuum. SOmetimes it feels really physical, like my body is there, and other times it's more mental, like my sense of vision is moving around but I have no body with me. -E Reply | Forward

#1647

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Fri Dec 6, 2002 6:28 am Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences ozblueriver > Dawna wrote: > Yes I do see most photos as alive...moving...as long > as any type of energy form is present...IE: > machines/plants/biologicals/people/animals/aliens(G)) > even rocks/valcanoes...water Hi Dawna, That's really interesting. I'm curious to know what you would consider as having no energy. Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#1661

From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m Date: Fri Dec 6, 2002 4:38 pm Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences maliolana Aloha Liz, Ummm good question...well I don't really decide what I see in session (at least I try not to)...I will have to ask my sub that...haha...I guess I do see most things as having some energy component...just variations on a theme... Some have a great deal and others have less...Some energy lines show that they are thicker/thinner...more volitile or less...some move in circles and others like lightening bolts and some are curved and others are straight... and the colors are an added effect...My diagrams are mostly energy forms seen on a black background...and the manner in which they are moving... I do see actual images sometimes...but even the man on the horse session came through as a man on a bucking bronco......and then of course ... there was the UFO energy signatures... Love & Light & Laughter Mali'o...aka...Dawna Reply | Forward

#1742

From: "David Humphries" Date: Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:58 pm Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences a_healey56 Kind of like platform # 9 3/4 at the train station in the Harry Potter movies? > If you have LDs, you can use them as a launch for OBEs. Reply | Forward

#1743

From: "Eva " Date: Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:33 pm Subject: Re: OBE Experiences k9caninek9 All I can say is it seems if you run into a barrier in an LD and think about OBEs at the same time, you are rather likely to at least have some unusual and interesting sensations and altered states. It's loads of fun and especially useful for those who have lots of LDs. -E Reply | Forward

#1755

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Sat Dec 14, 2002 5:56 am Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences ozblueriver Hi Eva, thanks for the advice on OBE's earlier on. > Eva wrote..... > If you have LDs, you can use them as a > launch for OBEs. It's much easier from > an LD, maybe cuz LDs are are close state > to OBEs. They way I do it is is run or > fly into any fence or wall or tree that > exists in the dream and I tell myself that > when I hit the barrier, I will burst out > of the dream and into an OBE. Try it, > it's loads of fun! LIZ: Now that does sound fun! I'll give it a try and let you know what happens. > Eva wrote: > I think like anything, OBE seems to exist > on a continuum. SOmetimes it feels really > physical, like my body is there, and other > times it's more mental, like my sense of > vision is moving around but I have no body with me. LIZ: I seem to get both types as well. Once I was high up in the mountains camping. We got there at dark and had no time to explore before morning. When I went to bed I kept myself amused by 'flying' for a while. I had been going through a period of wanting proof that when I went flying I was going to places in the physical rather than in my imagination and this time I got the proof. That night I spent ages 'flying' around what looked like the mountain I was camping on, even though I hadn't seen it in daylight yet. At one point I noticed what looked like a large white scar on the side of a mountain. I seemed to be hovering over a cliff looking across a valley. The next day a few of us went hiking. After a few hours we broke through some trees and right in front of me was a cliff. As I looked out across the valley there was the white scar on the next mountain side. I was beside myself with excitement. It was exactly as I had seen it while 'flying' the night before. It could not have been memory as we drove up the mountain in the dark and had hiked far up the mountain where I had never been before. That particular flying episode seemed to be a bodyless one. During perhaps 90% of my flights I have no interest in a body. It's as if I just have my conscious awareness that directs me. I don't even think to wonder if I have a body or not. The only time a 'body' seems to play a role is if I think it should. Because I have wrongly thought that OBE's required some sort of body awareness I have tried to summon one up. LOL I'm laughing about it now as I write because it all of a sudden seems like saying, "Oh, what will I wear tonight? Body or no body?". But seriously, whether or not I have a body while flying does seem to go hand in hand with my expectations. Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#1762

From: "Eva " Date: Sat Dec 14, 2002 2:21 pm Subject: Re: OBE Experiences k9caninek9 You know, the first few OBEs that I had after I consciously decided I wanted to induce them were the classic kinds in which you feel the vibrations of exit, float out, see your room, etc. But after that, I started to get more and more of the bodiless ones. According to Monroe, we use a diff astral body for long distance travel and so that might explain it. I suspect a lot of the OBE lore is because the more classic type of experience feels just so much more immediate and physical than the mind travel type one. It would be easier to palm off the mind travel events as imagination, except that they really are rather without imagination as all you see is scenery! -E Reply | Forward

#1779

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:24 am Subject: Re: Re: OBE Experiences ozblueriver Hi Eva, > It would be easier to palm off the mind > travel events as imagination, except that > they really are rather without imagination > as all you see is scenery! I'm a bit confused here. Are you saying that it's usual to just see scenery while mind traveling or are you refering to the fact that I personally just see scenery? I find it quite odd that all I see ( in this particular mode of travel ) is scenery, devoid of people or animals. If you are saying that is normal then I think it is even odder! LOL I wonder why that would be so? Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#1791

From: "Eva " Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:05 pm Subject: Re: OBE Experiences k9caninek9 I was actually referring to how the mind travel episodes don't seem like dreams because they are mostly just boring stuff like scenery. Now that you mention it, I rarely see people. I am often out in the wilderness or on country roads. But sometimes when I'm in a city, I do see people. -E > Liz wrote: > Are you saying that it's usual to just > see scenery while mind traveling or are > you refering to the fact that > I personally just see scenery? > I find it quite odd that all I see > ( in this particular mode of > travel ) is scenery, devoid of people > or animals. If you are saying > that is normal then I think it is even > odder! LOL I wonder why that > would be so? Reply | Forward

#1633

From: "PJ Gaenir" Date: Thu Dec 5, 2002 6:41 pm Subject: Re: Paintings as energy (was OBE Experiences) dennanm Howdy Liz, > I think I've had an OBE as well. > I have wondered if it was an OBE > or something else. That seems so strange to me! It isn't sort of... apparent? Hmmmn. I am remembering the first orgasm I ever had, and my mind going, "Wow! That was - er, was that...? Naw - yes, it had to be! --" OK. Maybe not knowing it was really an OBE is not that weird. :-) > I heard a sound similar to the roar of the ocean. That's great! Came right on. > I rolled out but I was in the house I lived it as a teenager. Interesting. > I got up out of bed fully aware and went into > the next room where my mum was sitting. > (Mum died 4 years ago.) > She couldn't see me so I tilted the painting > on the wall. That got her attention so I tilted > it again. She watched it in fascination. I > didn't want to scare her so I decided to go > back to my normal body. I tripped over a hat > stand on my way which caused it to fall. I > then got back into my body and woke up. Now that is really interesting. It sounds like you were in a place on the spectrum where you had some degree of physicality. ('Alien abductions' are often a good example of 'OBE' sourcing being in the range of physicality enough to leave quite physical evidence.) > The whole time I was totally aware that I > was attempting and succeeding to have an OBE > but I have been under the impression that OBE's > were confined to the present time and space. Well dang Liz, normally they are experienced that way - but not always - leave it to you to have something really cool and unusual enough to leave us with more questions than answers, LOL! > I would love to know if mum ever saw that > painting move and our hat stand fall. > Wouldn't that be a spin out. It certainly would. Sometimes... I don't know. I don't know that there is only one reality or one timeline. I don't know that if we go back in time - which can be done from anywhere, and is seldom done from 'this' state of mind only because we've been taught it can't be - that we are really accessing the identical reality we WERE in, or a reality that is a near-identical close parallel. I just don't have an answer for that. I did once have a very interesting experience related to time, in a way, though. When I was a kid, I used to daydream that "a big me" -- me in the future, big enough and fearless enough to defend me from my stepmother -- would somehow, some way, come and save me. Or that in some way, that older me would come back in time to me, just to tell me, "It is going to be okay. You are going to survive. You will live to be old enough to escape." I thought about that a lot in one period when I was about 12. I can't remember how this came about to be honest, I think I was doing a meditation, and got sidetracked on a fleeting memory of something from my past. In any case, I was meditating, around age 28 or so, and suddenly I *made contact with myself in the past*. I mean, like I was two separate people, and yet one, in some way difficult to describe. And I (as the younger me) gasped, with this huge internal cry of emotion, "It's YOU! You came for me! It's really you! I'm really OK!" And I (as the older me) wrapped her in my arms and smiled and said, "It's okay little one. You are going to be fine. Just hold the line. We're OK, have faith." I came out of the meditation realizing I had tears running down my face but I hadn't been aware of the older-me crying, only the younger- me. The odd thing was, although maybe this is not odd at all psychologically, after this meditation experience, I vaguely remembered such a thing, whereas before it, I remembered no such thing. I was really intrigued for quite awhile, wondering, did I really go back in time even mentally, or was I just talking to my own psychology? I heard of a scientology technique for attempting to go literally back in time. I had an acquaintance who worked very hard at this, went back to tell herself something, and then remembered having as a child met this woman (who looked like she did then) and it actually frightened her and she ceased attempting that. I know one CAN go backward time-wise, but like I said, I am never sure if it is exactly the 'same' timeline or one of "infinite variations on reality" or something. > So my question is.....Can OBE's happen in the past or future? Sure. That's been a little rare for me personally. I have sometimes encountered something -- like my cat who died years prior - quite alive from that perception. However, everything wasn't back in time in that case, it was merely that he was still alive and sleeping where he normally did. That could have been something of a "residual energy signature". Then again, maybe I am just a residual energy signature, LOL! > has anyone experienced a painting as a 3D world? Reminds me of Anthony's Xanth novels, the tapestry was a world. I've had two potentially related things with paintings, but not exactly. The first was a very astral-OBE-ish dream - by which I mean it was OBE but I was technically asleep so most people would prefer to call it a dream, I just happen to clearly know the difference because it's pretty obvious experientially. It was involving two men I haven't met, both were dead at the time - one for half a century. One had created a painting of the other that had a truly ineffable living-energy quality to it that was more than art, it was like some kind of art, sculpture, music, conceptual experience, all rolled up into one, but in the experience it was 'a painting'. The second was an RV session where I was deliberately trying to do some visuals with verbal description rather than normal method, and only got three, but all three were very dynamic and sort of profound in their own way. I will copy in the two items below just in case the association with a painting has any interest to you. The first - {Excerpt from letter to friend, February, 1996} Last night I found myself face to face with this painting; a portrait of Crowley. Not so much that it looked like he ever did; tough to explain. It was truly amazingly done, it managed to convey a huge amount of emotion and information and depth. Done in thick paints like the days of old, it had real texture as well as visuals. Yet it was dominantly in these odd greens and angles that gave it this rather Saturn-like, weird feeling, a bit of cold, impersonal and unearthly feeling as one of the many overtones. I turned to Israel (Regardie, who created it) and I said, "Israel, it's beautiful, you've captured so much of his energy it's like the portrait is alive; you always did have such a gift for empathic insight, and this is real art. And yet, I think the greens are partly your own interpretation of him; I would have used less of those, and a bit more deep blues." And he admitted that was likely the case, and then he reached out for me and we became like long ribbons, or maybe snakes or strings, and we wound around each other like a candy cane all the way out to the ends. It felt so strange, it was amazing! It was like I could feel my (astral?) body just thinning out and wrapping around his in a vortex-like spiral. He was a tremendously warm soul, and he gave me this feeling of real "maturity" is the only word I can put to it; I relaxed into him with a mix of gratitude and sensuousness and decided it had been far too long since we'd been together and I'd really missed him. After Israel and I had been winding around each other for some time, always going upward, having a tremendously good time (strangely intimate; not really sexual, I mean we didn't have normal bodies, but so intensely intimate it defies words) Aleister showed up to take a look at the portrait and comment on it. I had missed him so much, and I reached out to him and he took my hand and somehow was connected to Israel as well when he did. He seemed to accept that Israel and I were old friends just as he and I seemed to be, and we all contemplated the portrait as a "joined tripod unit of consciousness" for a bit. (That was interesting...) Then Aleister pulled back so he was an individual (mostly) and said "Yes, Israel, right about the blues, I see more of them in me than you do, but it's always been that way." And Israel and I directed our long swirled-entwined strings of bodies over closer to the portrait, next to him, and looked at it again for awhile. I decided that he is far more understanding of Crowley now than he had been when he was alive, or rather, that he now has fewer personal issues in the way of expressing his insight. Today I feel oddly like I merged with Israel and am now not entirely the same person I was yesterday. [end excerpt] The second - notes Aug5 are in pjrv archives about this session -- I was in a very altered state, and attempting 'image streaming' for a session, talking into a handheld recorder. I saw VIVIDLY this skeleton, or like a person who melted to skeleton like in the end of 'raiders of the lost ark', and the blood, and the skeleton's mouth was open, like he was screaming, and his arms were up, and something in one of them, I was not sure what, whether a gun, or scythe (like the grim reaper) or bat, something 'long' - and I was so shocked and amazed at the *intensity* of this that I backed away (in my mind I guess!), and as I did, I realized more and more that it was like a heavily painted portrait - I mean a 'thick/textural' painting - and the more I backed away the more I realized it was just a painting... but it had seemed so utterly real and alive when I first saw it. Regards, PJ Reply | Forward

#1694

From: "Eva " Date: Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:32 pm Subject: OBE forms-was Paintings as energy k9caninek9 I was interested to read this part. I had that happen once time also when dreaming/OBEing/whatevering. At the time, it was just mostly fun plus a certain feeling of familiarity/love. I'm rather sure that time wasn't an isolated incident, but only one episode has thusfar made it to conscious memory. I have noticed that when OOB, it's just really fun and relaxing to drop the human form and relax into ectoplasm mode! -E > PJ wrote: we became like long > ribbons, or maybe snakes or strings, and we wound around each other > like a candy cane all the way out to the ends. It felt so strange, > it was amazing! It was like I could feel my (astral?) body just > thinning out and wrapping around his in a vortex-like spiral.

// end archive

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