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pjrv : Messages : 2934-2941 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/2934?)
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#2934

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Tue Apr 8, 2003 11:39 pm Subject: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk pjgaenir MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk You guys feel welcome to post on anything from the intro to Chapters 1-3, or to any thoughts you have that are brought up by reading those. ----- In the introduction (by Dr. Charles Tart) and preface (by McMoneagle), I recall the first time I read this book being nearly bored to sleep by them. I am a big fan of Charles Tart (though at the time I read this book, I thought Joe was an Evil Emperor Of Psi-- amazing but frightening and on the dark side somehow--an impression (which now seems hilarious) that I'd been given by the 2nd- and 3rd- hard stories about him I'd been told), but that didn't matter. Reading it again, it still seems like an off-sync experience. These intros provide a 'logical, explanatory' intro to something a lot of people might find 'crazy'. But by the time I picked up the book, I was ready to read about remote viewing experiences. The logical tone of them only seemed to plod on while I wanted to get to something experiential. I suspect that sometimes, the discussions about RV and science seem this way to people who are much more interested in psi experience than the beancounting trivia about it. In the preface, Joe refers to fears related to writing about oneself, describing one as: ------ "Fear of Failing To Be Good Enough. This one is more difficult to address, since I can say that it is a very real fear which I find in myself but appears to be somewhat hidden in others who may be psychic. Perhaps it is the one fear that most psychics really share but try so hard to bury." ------ It's interesting he could describe this after what was, at the time, 18 years of professional experience in the science lab and in intelligence work with psi. Perhaps it's the constant "non-closure" state of remote viewing that invokes that feeling. I'd think in some people, they might project this into a worry about end-result, which could harm their viewing; while others might project this into a sense of urgency about the importance of the session, which might actually help their viewing. Chapter 1 One thing I liked about this book is summed up when he says: ------ "I have chosen to use both the controlled as well as the uncontrolled experiments because: 1. Both have had a profound and equally important effect on my concepts and beliefs; 2. In my perception, both experiences are just as valid from an experiential or learning point of view; 3. Finally, I cannot deny the effects from both any more than I can deny anything else that has happened to me in my life. What must be remembered is that I am not writing this in order to prove that psychic functioning or RV exists. I already know this to be so. I am writing this in order to address what effect that knowledge has had on my mind and in my life and to share that information with others. It is in this act of sharing that I hope to show the others who may be dealing with the same difficulties that they are all right, that they really aren't crazy." ------ Over the last few months, personally I've been moving rather hard away from many of the "angles of interest" in remote viewing that I've held for many years. It feels weird, because it is a very substantial internal shift on my part. I've gotten vastly more interested in the experience of RV than in the outcome of it. I've come to feel that maybe my personal experience during the process of it, and what I get out of that, is more important than the detail of my data and its accuracy. If I were doing RV for some reason that needed data, then I'd care about data, but since I am working on my own, I am starting to think that the data is just one facet of the overall experience, and not necessarily the important one except inside a Tasking. Imagine if we all remembered our dreams every night. And if some dreams told the future or psychic info. To me, it is like RV is focusing entirely on whether or not a dream produced accurate info like that. To me, a dream can be a fabulous experience, deep and changing, as if the inner components of my soul are moving about. A dream does not have to have accurate psi info for me to consider it of value to me. If it does, great. But the experience itself is of value to me. Well that is how I'm starting to feel about RV. That one facet of it is the "lust for result" of the accurate data--but the part I'm most interested in, is becoming the journey, not the end goal. I've come to be primarily interested in say, how I felt during a certain part of the session -- regardless of how accurately I managed to get that down on paper (because I learn a lot either way, and learning about myself feels like it is more important). I've even begun to feel (again -- I did years ago) that RV is a "mutual experience" with me and the target. I've begun to be much more interested in depth of target contact than anything else. I've begun to wonder about things like, if we create reality, how much of the target IS me, and how much of my target contact depth relates to my acceptance of those aspects of me represented by the target? Given that McMoneagle has done so much lab work and ops work, it is refreshing to see that from point 1--his first book--he is validating that for the remote viewer, experience is experience. (Of course when he says uncontrolled, he still means double-blind, he just means not in the science lab.) It doesn't matter who the tasker is, what the target is, or how validated (or not) the session data is. The experience of psychic functioning changes a person, whether or not there is feedback. Joe refs three books for those interested in learning more about psychic functioning. Of course this book was published in 1993, there may be some since he'd include, but he listed: 1. Mind-Reach: Scientists Look at Psychic Ability, by Russell Targ and Dr. Harold Puthoff (1977). 2. The Mind Race, by Russell Targ and Dr. Keither Harary. 3. Natural ESP, A Layman's Guide to Unlocking the Extra Sensory Power of Your Mind, by Ingo Swann. (Republished in 1991 as: Everybody's Guide to Natural ESP: Unlocking the Extrasensory Power of Your Mind.) He notes that sketches from his sessions are included in books

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t without his name, usually with his main viewer numbers (001 and 003). Note: He sent to me eons ago Rene Warcollier's "Mind to Mind", which has been republished now so is finally available again. PJ Reply | Forward

#2935

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Tue Apr 8, 2003 11:50 pm Subject: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk pjgaenir MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk How many of you feel like there are "cycles" in your life, particularly in areas that are 'metaphysical'? I had some very intense 'spiritual' (mostly entity and inspiration) experiences at one point in my life. I responded badly to these (thanks to being in the influence of a church at the time), and closed off all such things in my life (that I recalled anyway). Nine years later exactly, I walked into the home of a hands-on energy healer and teacher who was to become the turning point for a radical change in my life. I have always considered this timing cycle interesting. I have had a super negative experience happen three times in my life. It's happened to me three times, and the people were almost clones in every important facet except name/detail, and the three experiences have come exactly nine years apart. To the point where I intend to be READY nine years from now just in case (and I won't have anything to do with women who are a lot like them LOL). Well, I don't even remember this from my first reading of MIND TREK, but Joe comments near the end of Chapter 1: --------- "These two time periods were actually nine years apart, but, since one interacts so well with the other, I beleive both events were in some way connected...." --------- I wonder if nine years is a common cycle, or if it's just coincidence? PJ Reply | Forward

#2941

From: Karl Boyken Date: Wed Apr 9, 2003 11:01 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk--recurring themes kboyken I've felt recurring themes in my life. I can't say I see a standard unit of time between phases. I feel these recurrences are the result of the stuff I'm here to work through in this life. If life had no purpose, there'd probably be no sense of recurrence. I'd just experience a bunch o' stuff, all unrelated. Recurrences give life the feel of a work of art, like a piece of music where you hear the same thematic melody repeated at various points. I sometimes wonder whether life is art, and whether the sense of making headway or progress is illusory. I mean, when I finish playing a tune on the piano, I don't feel like the music at the end is "better" in any way than the music at the beginning. So, I wonder whether my life as a whole is like that. Here's hoping your super negative experiences don't repeat. Maybe you can arrange to be on a deserted island that year? Karl > MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk > > How many of you feel like there are "cycles" in your life, > particularly in areas that are 'metaphysical'? -- Karl Boyken kboyken...t http://soli.inav.net/~kboyken/ We dance 'round in a ring and suppose, while the Secret sits in the middle and knows. --Robert Frost Reply | Forward

#2936

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Tue Apr 8, 2003 11:43 pm Subject: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk pjgaenir MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk Joe talks in Chapter 1 about something I find interesting: ------ "My first discovery about self was a remarkable surprise. I found that within those second category experiences [he means: those we consider to be involuntary] there were very few that I had accepted, processed, or integrated. Almost without exception, the majority had been denied and buried, sealed off from the rest of my normal thought processes. I had ignored virtal input and continued to live by concepts and standards of reality shielded with blinders... ...I could describe my mind as being nothing more than a wonderfu and complex cloud. When faced with a change it didn't like, it just didn't process it. I found a region where I had been storing all of the phenomena of life which didn't fit anywhere else. Where all of the experiences thrust upon me, forced on me against my will, were simply placed and unconsciously ignored. ... ...I just simply ignored the threats to my consciousness as something I was unable to process and filed them neatly away in an area I would have to call _not real_, a sort of nebulous territory." ------ I think this is an important topic, maybe because I've had the same experience. Some text excerpts from Bewilderness, a case study about my weird life, which I wrote long before reading Mind Trek of course: ------ [various bewilderness excerpts, not mind trek]: ...I gradually accepted my "weird life" by assigning it the label of "interesting but unimportant." ... it was easy to relegate anything outside my job and my computer into some other aspect of reality and just ignore it. [And:] ... and ignoring her as if she hadn't even spoken to me, I walked around her and past her. And I completely forgot about it, within seconds. ... many of the occasions I've had personally would flash through my mind while I spoke or wrote, but I ignored them. Not on purpose. Just... at the back of my mind. They didn't even strike me as "relevant" to the subject that my brain would pull them out of the database and include it... and I never wrote it down, and I never mentioned it when it came up, and I have a difficult time remembering them, even right this moment. I don't think it's that my memory is unclear. It's that I can't access the memory properly. ....and so any strange experiences I had, I seldom remembered more than minutes after the event. My belief system simply had no room for them. I began remembering previous similar experiences, things that I had quickly dismissed in my more skeptical days, back when I'd refused to pay any attention to anything outside the ordinary. Gradually I began to wonder just how much of my life I had "tuned out" over the years. I finally realized that it wasn't so much that this was new to my life, as that my ability to take note of it was new ... My rather rigidly logical approach to life ... had prevented me from even remembering, let alone considering, these sorts of things before. ------ Humorously when I just went and did a search in the files of Bewilderness to find the string "ignor" to quote here, I found SO MANY references to ignoring things, that it might be one of the most common words in there besides conjunctions, "I" and "weird" LOL! That in itself is sort of interesting. Reading all the lines found with that search was like an overview of a really bizarre case of attempted denial. I find that even going through my various notes on dreams and meditations of the last couple of years, I have a ton of stuff that I've just ignored. I wrote them down. I went, "oooh, aaaah." And that was that. I was going through my journal recently and I thought, how come I haven't put any of this together? And I realized I haven't focused on it. I just haven't been paying attention to it. That made me think about creating our reality and getting what we focus on. I spend plenty of time thinking about work, and a zillion other topics, including worries. Yet almost no time spent thinking about the experiences which most intrigue me and change me. Maybe, as I've said in my journals more than once, most of life comes down to how well you pay attention. PJ Reply | Forward

#2939

From: Karl Boyken Date: Wed Apr 9, 2003 10:37 am Subject: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk kboyken One thing I found interesting in the first chapter is where Joe asks, "Where does someone begin to recognize significant changes in his perceptions and attitudes?" His first try at an answer is that it would have to be where the first abnormal experience happened. He then categorizes a person's experiences as either voluntary or involuntary, and comes to the conclusion that the beginning of any major change usually seems involuntary at the time. I get the idea that with hindsight, the experience may not seem to have been involuntary. This train of thought is his lead-in to the account of his NDE. I'd infer from that that he considers (or at one time considered) his NDE to have been an abnormal, involuntary experience, but maybe now he doesn't think it was really involuntary. In Chapter 2, the account of his NDE, it was interesting to me that his NDE involved the experience of warmth on the back of the neck. This happened at two points: the first, when he first began noticing something odd was happening; and the second, when he was traveling through the tunnel. To me, this sounds like some kind of energy experience involving the rear sixth chakra. The back sixth chakra is opened and exposed when a person bows his head, in prayer, for example--probably not something a person would do much of in a bar. I had an energy experience once that involved this chakra. I wonder whether Joe has ever had other experiences with the back of his neck. I also wonder what would have happened if Joe hadn't swallowed his tongue. From my reading, I don't think there was ever a medical reason found for his NDE, was there? The entire experience may have been a spontaneous energy experience that went awry when he swallowed his tongue. -- Karl Boyken kboyken...t http://soli.inav.net/~kboyken/ We dance 'round in a ring and suppose, while the Secret sits in the middle and knows. --Robert Frost pjrv : Messages : 2940-2963 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/2940?)
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#2940

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Wed Apr 9, 2003 6:10 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk ozblueriver MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk > Joe talks in Chapter 1 about ..... > Almost without exception, the majority had > been denied and buried, sealed off from the rest of my normal thought > processes. I had ignored virtal input and continued to live by > concepts and standards of reality shielded with blinders... Hi PJ, It's interesting to read that both you and Joe were in a fog of denial about psi experiences. I look back on my years from........oh maybe teens to early thirties knowing that they were spent in a fog of denial too but I was exactly the opposite. Anything in the physical world that threatened me or I was uncomfortable with I just ignored, totally. That was my only coping method at the time. Yet I searched out every possible psi experience I could find. I took note of every little detail and clung to it like it was a lifeline to somewhere, some world that was sane. I have never had the fear of psi that is talked about so often. I feel as if it is perhaps the safest, sanest, most loving area in my life. It feels like my true home to be in a good psi conducive state. I've always felt I have come from somewhere that psi is the norm rather than the exception. I grew up thinking everyone who loved me automatically knew all my thoughts and it was a terrible shock to discover they didn't and that for the rest of my life I would have to try and explain how I felt and what I knew. Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#2942

From: Benton Bogle Date: Wed Apr 9, 2003 11:06 am Subject: RE: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk waterway_21 PJ wrote: > " ... it was easy to relegate > anything outside my job and my computer into some other > aspect of reality and just ignore it. " Mr. Ingo Swann and Mr. McMoneagle wrote on this topic a bit and I found if valuable. Mr. Swann's writings on "Remote Viewing Processes and Layers of Meaning" are very pertinent. He discusses how we only attend to things, we only integrate info into our "mind" if it fits, if it has meaning to us. We scour the environment all day and the vast majority of the input data is simply ignored because it doesn't have meaning. It doesn't fit in our "world view" or our schema. As far as I can tell, the "subconscious" seems to be able to feed me info during RV, but my "consciousness" doesn't have any meaning for it, or at least not meaning that is easily, almost reflexively, obtained like other concepts in my ego driven "consciousness". Perhaps that is what all the practice is for, to create meaning or connections between the "meaningless" pieces of the target the "subconscious" provides, and the network of meanings our "conscious" minds already possess. Perhaps the "conscious" and the "subconscious" minds have two different languages, two different schemas, two different agendas.... most psychology 101 textbooks tell us that much.... and perhaps the "subconscious" mind is using the RV events, the experiences of RV, to teach our "conscious" mind its agenda, its language. Maybe the RV events are just the "subconscious" mind's attempts to co-ordinate efforts. I don't know.... how about some feedback. -Benton Reply | Forward

#2943

From: "P.R." Date: Wed Apr 9, 2003 12:47 pm Subject: RE: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk elittlestar HI PJ Mahalo for efforts; So far it has been very interesting and informative i look forward to more. it is so interesting to read how one processes different information and the struggle with-in ones mind because of the teachings of our society passed down to us.. The more that know, maybe, Breaking this limited thinking that presses on our process of the paranormal, which should be the normal over a shorter period of time, Hopefully ~ (;o) ~"Pame" You don't believe it, experience it yourself. "HaveThoughtWillTravel" choose a good one Reply | Forward

#2944

From: Benton Bogle Date: Wed Apr 9, 2003 9:16 am Subject: RE: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk waterway_21 Wow PJ, this post is fascinating because of the insights you present. I have just read the first one here but it struck such a cord... I have to respond to it. You said: > "I've gotten vastly more interested in the experience of RV than in > the outcome of it." From the very beginning of my reading about RV years ago, I was struck by how important the experience of RV was to the people doing it. I was also struck by how the statistical results were so amazingly paltry..... that they were just significant enough to suggest further research, but not significant enough for everyone to say "Oh wow!" To the people doing RV, the experience has to be very significant TO THEM. It appears that the act of RVing, the experience of it, has some significant MEANING to the individual. Readers may say "uh duh, of course PSI functioning seems important! Its frickin' PSI happening, fer crying out loud!" but really, for 99.99% of the population, despite all the proof it occurs, it is completely ignorable. I wonder if the phenomenon of RV is not about "psychic funtioning" but about the meaning it has for the individual doing it. Maybe RV isn't some 6th sense, but is a function of the individuals self-concept. Maybe that's why it doesn't seem to be so mechanically explainable.... our understanding of the "cause and effect" is wrong. Maybe the observance that "intent is everything" is valid because intent is directly related to the RVers concept of how the event reflects on their self. I could be completely off-base here. How about some useful feedback? Thanks. -Benton Reply | Forward

#2963

From: "Mary Ashley" Date: Sun Apr 13, 2003 12:05 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch 1-3 Book Talk maryladyoflight Hi Benton and PJ, I'm rather late in joining in... for a short delurk... This thread is soooo interesting. > Benton said.. > Maybe RV isn't some 6th > sense, but is a function of the individuals self-concept. [snip] > Maybe the observance that "intent is > everything" is valid because intent is directly related to the RVers concept > of how the event reflects on their self. I have found this to be true, in my own experience.. having been manipulated into mentally walking away from psi, totally for a while. In my heart I felt incomplete. In time, I began to feel spiritually violated, and as if I was breaking a sacred contract with my Spiritual Self. My own Psi ability, is for me, a deeply profound link with All That Is.... and a tool to use for the enhancement of mankind. I think maybe, that is why ARV only worked well for me for a time. I could not find a spirituality in the process. PJ.. you said :- > I've begun to wonder about things like, if we create reality, how > much of the target IS me, and how much of my target contact depth > relates to my acceptance of those aspects of me represented by the > target? Imho, we ARE the target.. we are all that is. The only separation is our own perception of that separation. Am I separate from the Universe somehow? No.. If so, show me the cut off point in the dancing energies.. I exist everywhere at once.. and where my conscious awareness is focused at any moment in time... And perhaps our spiritual development is all about total acceptance of one's Self.... of All That Is. Joe's NDE provided him with the final acceptance of the biggest ego barrier we have to overcome, the fear of death itself. MaryA. pjrv : Messages : 2962-2969 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/2962?)
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#2962

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Sun Apr 13, 2003 2:39 am Subject: Re: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk ozblueriver > Or dropped off in the wrong **time**. :-) Liz: Hmmmmmmm, I hadn't thought of that. Nah. I can't even think of a different time zone that is anything like where I felt I'd come from. Maybe it was a different dimention. LOL > My mothers reaction to my knowing the 'real' her was to keep me > distant. She told me in the heat of an argument that she had always > thought I was the devil. > Shelia:That's so sad. Liz: It was sad while I was young but when I finally figured out how life works I realized that I had been the one to choose it that way. During a meditation I saw myself as a baby and my mother smothering me with love. I had chosen not be raised this way but to be given support in finding my independence this lifetime. She filled this role to perfection and even though we were not close in a typical mother daughter way, she was my greatest teacher and the wisest women I have ever met. > Shelia:(I've always loved the Dune quote about > Fear as the mind killer, the little death because that > is the way I feel about fear.) Liz: Oh, how I agree! I could write a book on it. But I would say it is the only death. Thanks for telling me about your mum. There is another twist on fear of PSI....knowing a fearful event is to come. cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#2965

From: TaraMori... Date: Sat Apr 12, 2003 7:55 pm Subject: Re: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk TaraMori... > Shelia wrote > Just **listening from core** sets > in motion a spontaneous reaction between the > listener and the speaker > that completely realigns the underlying reality. yes --------------------- Tamra you're really pushing the limit of one-liner posts with this, lol. ;-) PJ Reply | Forward

#2967

From: TaraMori... Date: Mon Apr 14, 2003 4:19 pm Subject: Re: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk TaraMori... > you're really pushing the limit of one-liner posts with this, lol. ;-) PJ ;) Trypper asked if we're ready. I think, knowing what was done with splitting atoms, what might be done with creating mini black holes, and what might be done with psi, ready or not, we are obliged to keep pace and balance what's unleashed already. How was that for a paragraph? I understand Trypper's question. It was mine when I came onto the IRVA list. Some of you might remember my mentioning having numerous questions on ethics in rv. Add to that the mindboggling expansion of what passes for reality and I do sincerely feel we're obligated to keep pace and balance, finding the harmony between intuition/psi and rationality, not just for practitioners, but for what radiates from the efforts. ... if one breath here affects the direction of a butterfly on the other side of the globe, perhaps balance keeps her flying with both wings. that's all the verbosity in me at the moment. Mary Chapin Carpenter has me too mellow for words. best, Tamra Reply | Forward

#2968

From: "intuitwolf" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:18 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk intuitwolf > Liz wrote > There is another twist on fear of PSI....knowing a fearful event is to > come. Yes, and that's exactly what kept my mother in a bind of silence for her entire lifetime. And yet, it never came. . . not for her. I had the sense that her 'event' was located in an dimensional past that was bleeding through into her present. And she moved forward during her lifetime to a point on the day she died she was interested in finding what came next instead of being fearful. So, whenever I have a sense of something fearful lurking up ahead, I do what I think I can do within reason to prepare, but I don't give it so much power that it mucks up today. Shelia Reply | Forward

#2969

From: Weatherly-Hawaii...m Date: Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:36 pm Subject: Re: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk maliolana Aloha Tryper & Karl, I don't know either Trypper...but since it is here...we better learn to deal... and fast...I think it has been a long time coming/returning...but your questions were excellant!? Funny how that laying fault/blame/credit goes...The last one seems to be the hardest to find... Especially for parents...to get from their children anyway...at least untill they have lived to be as old... as they first remember us...hahah...and have had to make some of the very tough choices/ decisions themselves......and survive them... If they don't credit gods ... for everything good...They give it to themselves...hahaha...My children are all self taught!...Almost self created...hahah...(of course there is some truth to this)... Except for...the not so good stuff...that is all my doing they only accept responsibility for the good stuff... so far... ps I had a friend years ago... that turned to alcohol ...at a very young age...because he had such great parents...he actually had nothing to rebel against...I swear this is true...(His words)...His mother served Hawaii as Lt. Governor for 8 years...A wonderful lady......go figure! ps...I guess parents just can't win ...for losing...unless we live a very long time...hahah...My oldest gives me a lot of credit...I think that is because he has always been gifted at self analysis/introspection...... and of course is just naturally superior...hahah...and can take responsibility for the bad... as well as the good...and therefore see it ...even in mom! Love & Light & Laughter Mali'o...aka...Dawna pjrv : Messages : 2946-2980 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/2946?)
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#2946

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:36 pm Subject: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk pjgaenir MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk In Chapter 2, Joe talks about his first "Near Death Experience." In his case, this is a polite term for describing someone who just flat out dies and then just isn't dead anymore, so we kid ourselves that they never REALLY died, because our science can't deal with the idea that such a thing could be reversable ('ol J.C. and Lazarus notwithstanding). But he hadn't been breathing or had a heart beat even prior to being taken to the hospital, and didn't come around until after the cardiac stimulator didn't work and he was left for dead by the doctors. I can imagine the corpse suddenly sitting up and babbling about god and the white light would be enough to flip out the other patients. :-) Someone asked in a previous post if maybe it was just supposed to be an 'experience' but he unfortunately swallowed his tongue. He was assassinated. Poisoned on purpose. He doesn't talk about that in this book but he does mention it in his current book, 'The StarGate Chronicles'. Imagine what a nightmare it is to kill somebody who not only dies and then COMES BACK, but ends up being so damned psychic that they then know who and where you are. That's funny. :-) He mentions how when he apparently popped out of body (literally), the fear that he'd had a moment before was totally gone. This reminded me of something. I once accidentally OBEd when I was 12, not the kind I did regularly when really relaxed, but a sudden response to being munched severely during bodysurfing at the Ventura beach. One of several memorable aspects of it was the profound sense of calmness, that matched the incredible silence peace. I thought to myself in the moment, "Oh. I'm dead again." and it seemed perfectly normal and alright. Even though a couple seconds prior I had been struggling toward the sand and getting totally traumatically tossed about by the water on a monster wave I hadn't had time to duck. I think it makes me feel good to imagine that no matter how a person dies, they might feel calm when it happens. Given the violent and frightening way many people die, it's a nice thought at least. Joe talks about the responses that everybody had around him when he tried to talk about what happened while he was 'dead'. The doctors and nurses... isn't that weird, that they would be so frightened about that. People he knew who ranged from thinking him insane to being 'there for him' yet their similar thoughts were obvious. The Army and the docs doing extensive investigation into possible brain damage. I guess it's understandable that he pushed the whole subject down into as much denial as possible and didn't talk anymore to people about it. PJ Reply | Forward

#2947

From: "pjgaenir" Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:06 am Subject: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk pjgaenir MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk (I didn't mean for this to sound like a book report but since not many other folks are saying much it is ending up that way.) In Chapter 3, Joe talks about some after-effects of the NDE. I find them interesting because I think anybody going through some spiritual unfoldment tends to have at least some degree of these. He writes: ".... depression. [...] ...it was like swimming in a sea of humans who hadn't learned the simplest of truths. [...] It was as if all the false motivations and reasons for human interaction had been peeled back, exposing the bare-bones facts beneath. And the facts weren't fun to look at." You know how it feels when somebody is telling you something and you can feel that they are lying about it, or have some hidden motivation for telling you. I think the more 'aware' someone is, if they aren't tremendously adapted, it is nearly a feeling of 'raw'-ness. How much of our reality is unknown to us because we don't WANT to know? I mean look at the politicians we call 'leaders'. They're not even particularly covert or subtle. We are a whole species in denial. Never mind the details of interpersonal relationships. I think that may be one of many aspects of psi that frightens a lot of people at the subconscious level. That they and everybody else will be "found out" and be 'in trouble' somehow. That no amount of careful planning and adept explanation and personal contacts and Perfect Surface means jack when someone can feel your intentions and even sometimes your thoughts right through all that. Another effect he talks about is 'spontaneous knowledge'. Knowing what someone is thinking when they talk with you, or things about themselves which they haven't openly shared. I think most of might get at least a tiny dose of this now and then, but most of us are well practiced at ignoring it lol. Or doubting. Without evidence, it's easy to doubt. How many times in life can one find themselves thinking, "I wished I'd listened to my intuition about that person!" before realizing that as creatures we are not bad at picking up important information, we're just usually not real great at allowing it to be conscious and then accepting it. And when people DO accept such information, they're often wrong. I know plenty of people who are convinced of their divine connection who are basically deluded. So how does one get to the point of validating self yet not being an idiot about it? I suppose it is a matter of acceptance yet lack of attachment to the info and willingness to let reality's experience bear out whether it really has value. In my own 'spontaneous' experiences along those lines, the information is usually something that is sort of dark. Something wrong about the person or something they want or try to keep secret. Which means it's usually lousy stuff. Or, lousy stuff about their connection with you, if you get it while they're communicating with you. (Doesn't have to be in person. I get it in email sometimes.) I think this can contribute to paranoia, but as Joe mentions, it isn't necessarily, it's just 'tapping into an information line' that one previously had no access to. I think there is a positive side too though. I think when you are interested in a person or in a subject, you can often get spontaneous knowings about them. In any case, I would think that being an intelligence officer and suddenly getting such information would be... interesting. :-) The third after-effect of his NDE that Joe talks about is sudden out of body experiences. Nowdays most of us would think that was pretty cool, but given his situation and lack of info about such, it was just bizarre I imagine. My ex was once given a drink at a party in Czech that had sylociban (I'm sure I've misspelled that!) in it, and had spontaneous OBEs for years after that. He had one while walking to a corner in Vancouver BC one day and popped out of his body while his body continued walking in front of a truck. He survived. Actually healed bizarrely quickly. Ever since then, I've had a wary respect for the potential danger of something like that. Having these NOT happen while operating heavy machinery is a good thing I suppose.... Joe describes what amounts to learning to put all 'offbeat' incoming information or experience into a sort of 'cloud' that the mind then ignored, so he could function in the Army world and "seem normal" to everybody else. It seems to me that this is the fine line that anybody who is psychically active ends up having to walk. How to accept and validate yet -- well. How does one find mindlessness while not being brainless? :-) It takes work to pay attention and be aware and yet to clearly keep the model of what 'the rest of society' considers 'normal' so one can function within those parameters. PJ Reply | Forward

#2954

From: Karl Boyken Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:39 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk kboyken Someone dosed your ex with psilocybin? That's nasty! Or did he know at the time? Imho, one reason for feeling down after spiritual unfoldment is that sometimes you discover that you yourself are one of the people who've been lying to you. In fact, if we're all psychic, then if anyone has been lying to us and we've believed them, at _some_ level we're lying to ourselves, refusing to believe what the psychic part of us is telling us. And that's another reason for feeling some huge emotions after a big spiritual/psychic/mystical experience. You begin to realize your own power, or maybe more aptly, what power is accessible to you. And _then_ you begin to see that power entails responsibility. And suddenly, all those things that you used to feel were the fault or cause or responsibility of "other," really belong to you--they're _your_ responsibility now. I think that at root, that's what really frightens us, that we'll have to face our own responsibility. Suddenly, all that judgment that we've directed at everyone else comes right back at us--that's pretty heavy. That's what a life review is all about. About people who seem deluded about their sense of a divine connection--how do we know they're really deluded? I know a guy who believes he's Christ's kid brother. He believes his immediate mission is to go Jerusalem this spring and announce to the Jews that he's sort of a surrogate Messiah or something. Who knows--maybe he's right. I'm not buying into it--I won't be accompanying him on his journey--but I'm not selling him short, either. I'm trying to suspend disbelief. Time will tell. I put that into my own cloud, a big fuzzy one labeled "maybe so, maybe not." Karl Reply | Forward

#2964

From: "stanley01420" Date: Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:54 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk stanley01420 > Karl wrote: > I think that at root, that's what really frightens > us, that we'll have to face our own responsibility. > Suddenly, all that judgment that we've directed at > everyone else comes right back at us--that's > pretty heavy. That's what a life review is all about. And worst of all is the fear that those we love will feel that all of the bad things that ever happened to them are the fault of our conscious or unconscious meddling. Not the good stuff though.. those are blessing from God. :-) So what are we responsible for? Are we causing it or seeing it? Are we passive witnesses or active participants? Are we smart enough, wise enough, spiritual enough to be doing this at all? Is it all just egocentric arrogance ... did we stumble into something we shouldn't be doing, we can't handle? Would we all be better off if it remained an unconscious or subconscious process? It's happening. We all know it's happening. But can we, as a species or as individuals, deal with it? I don't know.... trypper Reply | Forward

#2966

From: "intuitwolf" Date: Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:35 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk intuitwolf > Mary wrote > And worst of all is the fear that those we love will > feel that all of the bad things > that ever happened to them are the fault of our > conscious or unconscious meddling. Mary sometimes I think you confuse yourself because you are, like most of us, sitting with one foot in the 'I want to please others and fit in with others' camp and the other foot in the 'I want to explore who I really am' camp. It sounds like you have some folks around you who do not share your interests or would be appalled if they knew your interests -- and that keeps you in a constant bind. I have been very very lucky -- no one in my family finds me to be the odd one out. My brothers, my sister, my children all know me well and share to some degree many of my psychically involved interests. I cannot fathom having it any other way. But I can imagine it would be very difficult. I have been in work situations where I had to be careful about talking with people about such things. . . but that's easy -- except for how very boring it gets staying on the surface with people. Eventually I usually step in to test their waters -- and I've been quite surprised several times to find another kindred spirit hiding out in the chit chat. > Mary said: > So what are we responsible for? Are we causing it or seeing it? > Are we passive witnesses or active participants? Shelia answers: We are responsible for every breath we take, for every action we take, for every action we don't take. We are never passive witnesses -- we might like to think it could be so -- but it's never so. I really believe that not doing is as powerful a statement/action as doing can be. Either way, we each make a choice. Mary said: > Are we smart enough, wise enough, spiritual enough to be doing this > at all? Is it all just egocentric arrogance ... did we stumble into > something we shouldn't be doing, we can't handle? It's not about how smart or wise or spiritual we are. It's about learning who and what we are and what we can be. It is about remembering our innermost selves. Yes we will be arrogant in the process; yes, we will make mistakes; yes, there are things we will bungle along the path. But there are some wonderful things we will do and learn and hopefully at the end of our days we will have left a clearer, less cluttered pathway for our children and their children. Mary said: > Would we all be better off if it remained an unconscious or > subconscious process? And I say without hesitation: everything unconscious will one day rise to consciousness. The only choice is when you personally wish to meet the wave. Mary said: > It's happening. We all know it's happening. But can we, as a > species or as individuals, deal with it? Shelia responds: We must - we have no choice in this one thing. We are human beings and all that entails. It is happening; we are making it happen; we have chosen it to happen; we have all chosen to be here now. Recognizing those choices made long ago may be the hard part. Shelia Reply | Forward

#2970

From: Karl Boyken Date: Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:26 pm Subject: Re: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk kboyken Good questions, and I wish I had the answers. Can we deal with it? I guess we'll find out. Karl > So what are we responsible for? Are we causing it or seeing it? Are we > passive witnesses or active participants? Are we smart enough, wise > enough, spiritual enough to be doing this at all? Is it all just egocentric > arrogance ... did we stumble into something we shouldn't be doing, we can't > handle? > Would we all be better off if it remained an unconscious or subconscious > process? > It's happening. We all know it's happening. But can we, as a species or as > individuals, deal with it? Reply | Forward

#2948

From: Karl Boyken Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:23 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk kboyken PJ, thanks for reminding me of that. I've read The Stargate Chronicles, so I should have remembered that myself. I guess if any experience is involuntary, an assassination would be. Karl > Someone asked in a previous post if maybe it was just supposed to be > an 'experience' but he unfortunately swallowed his tongue. He was > assassinated. Poisoned on purpose. He doesn't talk about that in > this book but he does mention it in his current book, 'The StarGate > Chronicles'. Imagine what a nightmare it is to kill somebody who not > only dies and then COMES BACK, but ends up being so damned psychic > that they then know who and where you are. That's funny. :-) Reply | Forward

#2950

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:04 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk ozblueriver Hi PJ, although I had never had a NDE I totally understand the complete calmness that Joe talks about. Whenever I'm in a PSI mode (meditation) that is how it feels to me. Totally clam without any fear at all. And that is why I have never felt a fear of PSI. To me, for some reason it is a zone without fear. I can't be in it if I bring any fears along with me. In my life, fear is only in this physical world or in dreams. Is that the same for everyone? Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#2960

From: James Phillip Turpin Date: Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:19 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk james_p_turpin Yes, but the problem is how can you get into a psi state in the first place if you have become afraid of psi? And how can you confront your fears if you can't get into a psi state? Once the fear starts, its a Catch 22. > Liz wrote: > Whenever I'm in a PSI mode (meditation) that is how it > feels to me. Totally clam without any fear at all. And that > is why I have never felt a fear of PSI. > To me, for some reason it is a zone without fear. I can't be > in it if I bring any fears along with me. In my life, fear > is only in this physical world or in dreams. Is that the same > for everyone? Reply | Forward

#2975

From: "Eva" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:51 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk k9caninek9 I think you absolutely can get in a psi state even when you are scared. I've done it and if I couldn't, I'd probably never have made much progress. However, I do agree that fear is a hindrance. It may be that it's more like a constant battle between varying elements of one's personality. -E --- In pjrv...oups.com, James Phillip Turpin Yes, but the problem is how can you get into a psi state in the first > place if you have become afraid of psi? And how can you confront your > fears if you can't get into a psi state? Once the fear starts, its a > Catch 22. > > > > Liz wrote: > > Whenever I'm in a PSI mode (meditation) that is how it > > feels to me. Totally clam without any fear at all. And that > > is why I have never felt a fear of PSI. > > To me, for some reason it is a zone without fear. I can't be > > in it if I bring any fears along with me. In my life, fear > > is only in this physical world or in dreams. Is that the same > > for everyone? Reply | Forward

#2980

From: James Phillip Turpin Date: Sat Apr 19, 2003 7:03 pm Subject: Re: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk james_p_turpin Well, I finally did the psi experiment that I was planning to do, and the results were quite poor. The answers weren't even self-consistent. Maybe I will try again with different types of targets. On Sat, 19 Apr 2003, Eva wrote: > I think you absolutely can get in a psi state even when you are > scared. I've done it and if I couldn't, I'd probably never have made > much progress. However, I do agree that fear is a hindrance. It may > be that it's more like a constant battle between varying elements of > one's personality. > -E > ---------------------------- Moderator's note: Sorry I'm so out of touch you guys, turns out several messages were sitting here -- I am just snowed under work-wise, and for some reason really fried on the screen. I can't avoid my computer since it's my job, but I've been avoiding email and web discussion. Sorry these messages sat so long. I'll be back in binaryland before too long. -- PJ Reply | Forward

#2951

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:06 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk ozblueriver > ".... depression. [...] ...it was like swimming in a > sea of humans who hadn't learned the simplest of truths. > [...] It was as if all the false motivations and reasons > for human interaction had been peeled back, exposing > the bare-bones facts beneath. And the facts weren't > fun to look at." Sigh.....I suffered from this as a child. I seemed to just know the real truth behind people. I didn't understand why they did the things they did or why they said one thing but meant something else. Also everyone seemed to get so much joy from what I thought was trivial rubbish. It confused me no end. Unlike Joe though, I didn't block of PSI, I blocked off people. I was shy and distant as a result. I felt like I'd been dropped off on the wrong planet. LOL > To me anything PSI related was the truth, the real stuff, > and this physical world was the lie, the bit to be fearful of. I had no way to shield myself from other peoples pain either. This definitely leads to that raw feeling. Anything that involves high emotion seems to be the easiest to pick up on. And the sad thing is that most of our high emotional stuff is fear related rather than elation from something great happening. I think the thing that always feels the worst is how someone else feels when they think someone thinks badly of them. From where I stand this seems to be what people fear the most. So this feeling leads people to lie, cheat, etc and the cycle goes around and around because no one is totally accepting of themselves let alone anyone else. My mothers reaction to my knowing the 'real' her was to keep me distant. She told me in the heat of an argument that she had always thought I was the devil. I think people are very frightened of someone who might know their true selves. I've seen it so many times. And I don't think we as a collective will accept psychic abilities or phenomena 100% until we are ready to accept who we are as being good, and worthy of showing to the world. We say we want to be 100% psychic and great RVers but we won't open up. I think a lot of people are slowly letting go of fears which has the effect of opening us up little by little to PSI but we have a bit to go until we are totally open with each other/ourselves/psychic abilities. Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#2958

From: "intuitwolf" Date: Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:40 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk intuitwolf > Liz wrote: > Unlike Joe though, I didn't block of PSI, I blocked off people. > I was shy and distant as a result. I felt like I'd been dropped off > on the wrong planet. LOL Or dropped off in the wrong **time**. :-) > I had no way to shield myself from other peoples pain either. This > definitely leads to that raw feeling. Anything that involves high > emotion seems to be the easiest to pick up on. This is an interesting point to explore. It correlates in remote viewing as targets with 'high entropy' are the easiest to RV. Which is why one should practice with a good mix that also includes many mundane targets. In that way you train yourself to pick up on the subtle as well as the 'louder volume' energies. > My mothers reaction to my knowing the 'real' her was to keep me > distant. She told me in the heat of an argument that she had always > thought I was the devil. That's so sad. I feel something of a kinship with that because my mother experienced from her mother what you experienced with yours. So, guess what her reaction was to me? A mixture of pride, joy, interest, and fear for what might happen to me. She was always telling me I needed to try to be less serious (this out of the mouth of the original Ms Serious) and have some fun. She also had a recurrent dream of being burned at the stake as a witch. So she had some pretty fearful possible future senarios that she didn't talk about unless it was dragged out of her, but on the few occasions I managed to get her to talk it out it was clear she held some deep-seated fear that the future held a repeat of the historical past where women of psi were murdered out of fear. So, there was that warning tone but she didn't stress it. My lack of fear somehow emboldened her to talk more about it as she grew older. And she once asked me if was ever afraid. I told her at a base level the answer was no. But hey, let an apparition appear or the wind chimes ring on command and yeah, a chill a thrill or whatever passes through us at times that could be called fear happens for me as fast as it does for everyone else. But that's the catch: it passes through me. (I've always loved the Dune quote about Fear as the mind killer, the little death because that is the way I feel about fear.) I don't see it as a baseline trait -- it's a passing phenomena. Shelia Reply | Forward

#2952

From: Rfjuice... Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:14 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk rfjuice2000 > Imagine what a nightmare it is to kill somebody who not > only dies and then COMES BACK, but ends up being so damned psychic > that they then know who and where you are. That's funny. :-) My apologies to Joe, to joke about something so serious. BUT - Can you imagine, is right! He could be tormented for the rest of his life, hahaha. Just think, the person could never rely on having any private moments, ever. Oh the possibilities. Sounds like a movie to me. Linda Reply | Forward

#2955

From: TaraMori... Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:01 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk TaraMori... > (I didn't mean for this to sound like a book report but since not > many other folks are saying much it is ending up that way.) Sorry, PJ. I was so excited about it when you brought it up, then I carelessly left my computer on and fell asleep during a terrible storm. I woke to a dead computer, so am having a bit of trouble on this old clunker with the sheer volumes of mail I typically breeze through. Setting some lists to nomail will help and I'll jump in more. What you say in the following is something I highly relate to and occassionally (just two days ago even) mention to a friend or two, when it really gets to me. > ".... depression. [...] ...it was like swimming in a sea of humans > who hadn't learned the simplest of truths. [...] It was as if all the > false motivations and reasons for human interaction had been peeled > back, exposing the bare-bones facts beneath. And the facts weren't > fun to look at." > > You know how it feels when somebody is telling you something and you > can feel that they are lying about it, or have some hidden motivation > for telling you. I think the more 'aware' someone is, if they aren't > tremendously adapted, it is nearly a feeling of 'raw'-ness. How much > of our reality is unknown to us because we don't WANT to know? It is a rawness. Sometimes I want to say something, but I rarely do. When people consciously believe their intention, motivations, and actions to be one thing while their subsconscious is saying another, I find it most kind to not rattle their cage although, to be blunt, I'd often love to since most often they are causing themselves all kinds of distress which they'll complain about when it happens ... as if it happened to them by some outside force and they were blindsided. Unless a person is very clear inside to out, it's hard on me to deal with the incongruities in conscious and unconscious simultaneously and interact on the superficial day to day level that most operate on. Another effect he talks about is 'spontaneous knowledge'. Knowing what someone is thinking when they talk with you, or things about themselves which they haven't openly shared. This happens alot for me, but usually what is known is something I can use in helping the person and a part of them has recently called out for help in some way. This happens with animals too. I sense distress calls on a psi level and wander to the place a critter or human is suffering. It's happened that I've driven across the country to be where I was needed. It's very strange, but spontaneous knowledge is part of it for sure. Interesting to me has been that this spontaneous knowledge most often is on a need to know basis. If I know it, I need to know it in order to help. This is the norm, not the rule. Sometimes I'll know things and be beside myself with why... when there is absolutely nothing I can do except care. Maybe that's enough in some situations. The loving intention itself might be sufficient. I wrote an article recently that fits right in with the rest of your post -- what you're saying about intuition and listening to it. I'd share it here, but as the magazine isn't out yet, maybe that's a no no ... so I'll send it to you offlist. Thanks for doing the book discussion, PJ. I think it's a grand idea. Tamra Reply | Forward

#2956

From: "intuitwolf" Date: Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:04 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk intuitwolf > [PJ wrote] > Another effect he talks about is 'spontaneous knowledge'. Knowing > what someone is thinking when they talk with you, or things about > themselves which they haven't openly shared. > [Tamra wrote] > This happens alot for me, but usually what is known is something I > can use in helping the person Sometimes what happens when you are **really listening** to another person is you create a space in which they suddenly hear themselves or see their dilemma -- the mirror effect. This creates a **spontaneous Knowing** for them as well as for yourself. Often there can be a momentary confusion as they switch gears from the position they were stuck in to the one that is less covered in personal storytelling. So, when you as the Listener care enough to simply listen, sometimes that's all that's needed. And when I say listen I don't mean the kind of listening that seeks to buoy up the storyline with sympathetic response, I mean the kind that psychically **sees** the core and **hears** the real heart of the matter. You don't have to say anything, you don't have to actively dissuade anyone from their illusions and favorite fan dances. Just **listening from core** sets in motion a spontaneous reaction between the listener and the speaker that completely realigns the underlying reality. Shelia --------------------------- Moderator's note: I never thought about listening as being so... er, active an experience. That's interesting. PJ Reply | Forward

#2957

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Sat Apr 12, 2003 5:58 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk ozblueriver > Karl wrote: > Imho, one reason for feeling down after spiritual unfoldment > is that sometimes you discover that you yourself are one of > the people who've been lying to you. Now ain't that the truth! LOL Cheers Liz Reply | Forward

#2959

From: TaraMori... Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:07 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk TaraMori... > Karl wrote: >In fact, if we're all psychic, then if anyone has been lying to us and we've >believed them, at _some_ level we're lying to ourselves, refusing to believe >what the psychic part of us is telling us. And that's another reason for >feeling some huge emotions after a big spiritual/psychic/mystical experience. >You begin to realize your own power, or maybe more aptly, what power is >accessible to you. And _then_ you begin to see that power entails >responsibility. And suddenly, all those things that you used to feel were the >fault or cause or responsibility of "other," really belong to you--they're >_your_ responsibility now. I think that at root, that's what really frightens >us, that we'll have to face our own responsibility. Suddenly, all that >judgment that we've directed at everyone else comes right back at us--that's >pretty heavy. That's what a life review is all about. so very true and well said. Tamra ---------------------------- Moderator's note: I agree, I was going to comment on that too. Very insightful Karl, IMO! -- PJ Reply | Forward

#2961

From: "Elizabeth Hambrook" Date: Sat Apr 12, 2003 11:06 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk ozblueriver > James wrote: > Yes, but the problem is how can you get into a psi > state in the first place if you have become afraid > of psi? And how can you confront your fears if you > can't get into a psi state? Once the fear starts, > its a Catch 22. G'day James, The best method I've found for confronting a fear is to not avoid it but to try and go right down deep within yourself to find out where the fear stems from in the first place. I follow the feeling of it and ask myself questions. Usually I have to get to a point of feeling the fear so badly that I crack through a barrier.......then the answer comes. Sometimes I might have to keep nagging myself to give me the answer and sometimes it will come first time. Once you discover the real deep down reason you can then start to rebuild your beliefs. Rebuilding beliefs is usually best done by action plus thought. So that would mean get back on the horse and do some RVing and remind yourself that you know it's Ok (or whatever). There is another method if you're not too keen on the above one. It bypasses sorting out where the fear stems from (which is quite often not what you think it may be). Do anything that puts you in a sleepy mood, so sleepy that you couldn't care less about anything. Then force yourself to stay awake just long enough to do some RV or PSI type activity for a few minutes. When we are relaxed we are less fearful. :) So work on being totally relaxed first. Good luck Let me know how you go. Liz Reply | Forward

#2976

From: "Eva" Date: Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:55 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk k9caninek9 Yes, the chasing the fear technique can be very enlightening. However, fear of the unknown is a little bugger that is hard to stamp out permanently, LOL! -E --- In pjrv...oups.com, "Elizabeth Hambrook" > > G'day James, > > The best method I've found for confronting a fear is to not avoid it but to try and go right down deep within yourself to find out where the fear stems from in the first place. I follow the feeling of it and ask myself questions. Usually I have to get to a point of feeling the fear so badly that I crack through a barrier.......then the answer comes. Sometimes I might have to keep nagging myself to give me the answer and sometimes it will come first time. > > Once you discover the real deep down reason you can then start to rebuild your beliefs. Rebuilding beliefs is usually best done by action plus thought. So that would mean get back on the horse and do some RVing and remind yourself that you know it's Ok (or whatever). > > There is another method if you're not too keen on the above one. It bypasses sorting out where the fear stems from (which is quite often not what you think it may be). > Do anything that puts you in a sleepy mood, so sleepy that you couldn't care less about anything. Then force yourself to stay awake just long enough to do some RV or PSI type activity for a few minutes. > When we are relaxed we are less fearful. :) So work on being totally relaxed first. > > Good luck > Let me know how you go. > Liz Reply | Forward

#2949

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:39 am Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk docsavagebill Hello Palyne, That was a great start to Mind Trek, sort of like Deadzone. Interestingly, after reading that I asked several RV "experts" if having an NDE increased RV ability. I don't think any would agree outright. But many studies certainly show that psychic ability is increased by these incredible experiences. I also could not help wondering about who and why tried to kill Joe? He said in Stargate Chronicales that he knows who they are and where they live ..in Germany I guess. I guess it could have been Soviet agents or something like that..but I got the idea it was personal. His life at that time seemed rather filled with personal angst and anger. Bill* Reply | Forward

#2953

From: James Phillip Turpin Date: Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:55 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk james_p_turpin I wonder why he didn't talk about the assassination part. And what did he do about it? Maybe he... oh yeah, I can see why he might not want to talk about it for a while. Reply | Forward

#2972

From: "Eva" Date: Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:51 pm Subject: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk k9caninek9 I've heard him hint at it before. Maybe it was in Mind Trek but I'm not sure. I remember he was talking about the heart attack and then shortly after there was an explanation of binary poisons. I don't think he came out and said directly that he thought he was poisoned, but the insinuation was strong if I remember correctly. -E --- In pjrv...oups.com, James Phillip Turpin I wonder why he didn't talk about the assassination part. And what did > he do about it? Maybe he... oh yeah, I can see why he might not want to > talk about it for a while. Reply | Forward

#2974

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Sat Apr 19, 2003 3:39 pm Subject: Re: Re: MIND TREK Ch1-3 Book Talk..poisoning docsavagebill Hi Eva, In Mind Trek he never said so but in Stargate Chronicals he said outright he was poisoned and knows who did it and that they live in Germany. Bill*

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