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pjrv : Messages : 41-136 of 4038
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pjrv/messages/41?) 2006/06/30 20:57:52
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#41

From: "raainfall" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 5:22 am Subject: Ideograms...ainfall Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha All, I found the thread on ideograms very interesting and thought I would add a bit about how ideograms are used in HRVG methodology. Let me preface the information with a little about the nature of ideograms. At HRVG we deal primarily with two main forms of ideographic data. The first is Visual Ideograms and the second is Spontaneous Ideograms. Both types of ideographic data are considered to be expressive and non-perishable. This means the ideogram preserves its integrity beyond observation by the viewer who produced it. I'll comment on Spontaneous Ideograms frist. If you think about the ideograms that most are familiar with, a scribble of sorts done with a pen on paper, you realize that this graphic representation somehow contains or displays data about the gestaltic nature of the intended target. This was probably quite a leap for some when they were first exposed to it as a means of deriving target data. Graphically expressed ideograms work because they are expressive. By expressive I mean that you have used a pro-forma method to express meaning or knowledge through an action. In our alert Beta/Alpha we engage our language skills to express information. This could be written or audible and inclusive to our body language and biophysical state. In the production of graphic ideograms a residue of the subconscious understanding of the target is expressed or impregnated into that brief physical release on the paper with the stylus or pen. While recoverable by probing, the data is much like the scratches on the tubes that were used by inventor Thomas Edison for his cylinder sound-recording apparatus. He realized that an embossed disk, tape, or cylinder could be used to record acoustic vibrations in permanent form and to activate a playback system that, in moving over the embossed surface, would create an acoustic facsimile of the original sound. Graphically produced ideograms (in theory) are a similar application to record and playback base sensory data recovered from the intended target. The skill matures when the viewer adeptly collects, expresses, and replays the data on demand. A few things are evident in the preservation of the ideograms. Probing with a pen destroys data after collection. A probing stylus or finger, are less destructive to the ideographic integrity. At HRVG probing is done with a pen unless there is a need to keep the ideogram intact. It is also understood that a probing period to recover data is limited to about one and a half seconds. This is just long enough to emulate sensory data from the ideogram and avoid the construct period that follows. Spontaneous Ideograms are naturally devoid of fixed form but it may have a limited rhyme to its chaos that is demonstrative of a target quality in its spontaneous production. While the subconscious can be trained to produce quantifiable ideograms with form i.e. wavy across, rooftop etc, performance must be reinforced with training. One should not count on a graphic reconciliation of ideographic meaning Visual Ideograms. I am sure some would wonder "How can you have a Visual Ideogram?". Visual Ideograms are a construct of NLP. At HRVG we use NLP to allocate a portion of the visual field for the exclusive use of the subconscious to display imagery at the subconscious sees it. Production of the Visual Ideogram will fall into three (3) categories: 1. Graphic representation of target imagery. 2. Warcollier style ideogram. 3. Contamination. Ideally a graphic representation of target imagery is most desirable, but at least half the time a Warcollier effect will manifest. This manifestation will occur in two (2) styles. 1. A Fixed Code Image. 2. A Disjoint Pictogram. The Fixed Code image is a prism effect of partial imagery originating from one side of the brain and it's sympathetic reflection for a complete stereo bandwidth focus as it is interpreted by the primary awareness. To verify the fixed code image usually one can put a card over half of the ideogram and the half that is covered will be a mirror reflection of the exposed half. The disjoint pictogram will be true Warcollier style graphic containing target aspects out of sync as a complete graphic representation. While we use the term ideogram for this visual data it is more appropriate to refer to it as a pictogram in most cases. Because some viewers seem specifically ideographic even after several years of training we recognize the skill at its most basic application level. Ideograms are considered to be less exotic than some aspects of RV and as such sometimes get the bums rush in session. At HRVG ideograms form the foundation of everything that follows. Ideograms allow target contact to solicit specific information without compromising the target aperture at the early stages of session work. Aloha Glenn Reply | Forward

#44

From: "dennanm" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:46 am Subject: Ideograms & Probing dennanm Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Glenn, Well you win the Has Intellectualized Ideograms award for the day, that is for sure! ;-) Thanks for the notes on HRVG's approach to Ids, that is pretty interesting. I don't know anything about your methods, and don't hear about them on other lists, so it's all news to me. My spontaneous Ids (I don't do others) are always in the categories of traditional Warcollier-stuff or pictogram. Usually, just to be confusing, a little of both, LOL. I haven't found anything like, ability to probe an Id being limited to 1.5 seconds... did I misunderstand that? I can't think of any logical reason for this being so, and in my practice I don't see it being so, but I might have mixed up what you meant. Regards, PJ Reply | Forward

#63

From: "raainfall" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 11:11 pm Subject: Re: Ideograms & Probing raainfall Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha Miss PJ, When the viewer is still in the alert beta/alpha stage of the session a major consideration has to be the ingress of construct/imagination on the process. In the probing of ideograms the actual dwell time, for a single iteration of a probe, should realistically be limited to the recognition response time of the person. The probe itself is a quasi-NLP cue to the subconscious to replay/listen the sensory content of the ideogram. So just like the stylus on the record player, the probe on contact with the ideogram begins a recognition period. The data flow is brief and limited. It is limited because the listening ability is limited in alert beta/alpha. The rule of thumb at HRVG, for a probe duration, is likened to the length of time your own mind can (in alert beta/alpha) open pathway to a specific sensory memory or sensation. I like to use the analogy of "Remember how a banana smells". Easy enough but for how long can you actually grasp the sensory flow? Usually about 1 to 2 seconds is the limit to the sensory expression of the actual event. Using that as a gauge you can determine the length of time you can safely probe before the construct imagination begins to flow into the process. Aloha Glenn ------------------ Moderator's Note: Oh I see. You mean, that is how long per-probe info is expected to flow without analytics, essentially? I had thought you meant, you had 1.5 seconds to touch it QUICK! or it was useless, LOL! OK, that makes more sense I suppose. My own theories on 'how this works' kind of bulldoze through this topic, but I can see your perspective on this and appreciate your sharing it. Er, I can see it after a couple of slow reads. My god Glenn, you must have written beautiful military reports. ;-) -- PJ Reply | Forward

#115

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:22 am Subject: Re: Re: Ideograms & Probing docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Glenn, Do you use this 2 second rule in stage 2 and 3 also or just for ideograms? Best Regards, Bill --- raainfall wrote: > actually grasp the sensory flow? Usually about 1 > to 2 seconds is the > limit to the sensory expression of the actual event. > Using that as a > gauge you can determine the length of time you can > safely probe before > the construct imagination begins to flow into the > process. Reply | Forward

#128

From: "raainfall" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:19 pm Subject: Re: Ideograms & Probing raainfall Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha Bill, Q> Do you use this 2 second rule in stage 2 and 3 also or just for ideograms? I guess we could better quantify the 1.5 to 2 second rule as an access aperture to the remote target when the viewer is in an alert Beta/Alpha state. When we look at what we are asking the viewer to do, it is pretty amazing. Keep in mind that the viewer's state of mind is under the positive control of its primary operating system and we ask that operating system to suspend activities while we jump 100 years and 10,000 miles to a remote target. The primary awareness is designed to (during your waking hours) manage input and output. It has a need to remain active working a series of functions that range from the basic to the advanced. It just doesn't naturally want to suspend its very important functions while we go off to who knows where. It means at the most basic level that the primary function of protection of the human host in its environment is left unattended. It is a lot like sleeping on guard duty. The mind allows for time (as a function) to access its sensory memory or sensory collection apparatus in alert Beta/Alpha, but the duration of these moments are governed by simple rules of dwell time. If I asked you to remember what an apple looks like your mind will respond with just enough of its assets to accomplish the task and no more. You will quickly reference your library and for about 1.5 to 2 seconds dwell time you will complete the basic mental recognition needed to quantify the need for information on the apple and satisfy the query posed to the mind. If I asked you to remember your first pet as a child, perhaps a dog or cat, it sets up a different operational task for the mind because the information is linked to a maze of associated memories. It is here that the mind is in an association mode and can be distracted. The 1.5 to 2 second dwell time is still in effect but it seems far longer because it is a domino effect of sequential dwell times as an association expires into a new association. When we ask a viewer to generate data about a remote target we must understand just a few very important things. If the viewer is in an alert Beta/Alpha state we must begin with strict adherence to dwell times. We use those dwell times to collect data that we will later use to support extended target contact in an association mode. When we can jump from library recognition to associations we will see a functional drop in the Beta levels and a rise in the Alpha levels. It is a moment where we engage the mind with an environment in which the primary awareness allows for an extended absence from watchdog duties. We see this condition manifest in ourselves every day. Have you ever been deep in thought while driving to work and arrive at work a bit surprised not really remembering driving the last several blocks? You set into play an environment that any viewer would envy. But alas you don't know why or how. The viewer needs to be trained to establish and maintain environments that are conducive to collection of remote target data. One of the questions I always ask a class is "Do you really want to be here?". Is your mind right? Are you sure you want to do this? If the viewer adheres to method and protocol from S-1 to S3 then the 1.5 to 2 second dwell time can be expanded in S-4 because the mind has enough information to support a series of associative dwell times. Until you have enough data you can't support the environment. Aloha Glenn Reply | Forward

#130

From: Bill Pendragon Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:37 pm Subject: Re: Re: Ideograms & SPEED docsavagebill Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Glenn, Glad to have your opinion. It seems like several schools really emphasize speed at the beginning to avoid AOL drive. Also my healing teacher insists on speed for the initial stages of his "Reading" methodology. I think it's time to work on the SPEED----> issue. Best Regards, Bill Reply | Forward

#133

From: "turboaccess" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:17 am Subject: Re: Ideograms & Probing turboaccess Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 My left brain thanks Glenn for the ideogram explanation. My right brain seems to have known it all along. I do my ideograms by scribbling quickly after the coordinates and I get a general gestalt or two. I usually want to go back and probe the ideogram at different points for information. After a few probes, if needed, I feel the urge to do another ideogram and begin the process again. Both ideograms might look similar but it seems I can pull much more information than if I had just stuck to doing only the one ideogram. I do that as many times as I need to. I do notice that the longer I'm doing a target, the harder it is. Any tricks of the trade to help stay in the zone? Is it better to break at the point you notice yourself having trouble and come back later, or what? Anyone else have that problem? Thanks to PJ for being the catalyst yet again. My practice comes in spurts with long periods of avoidance in between. It always helps to know others have been in the same boat and that we can steer it out of the doldrums together. On a more personal note, after CRV training the floodgates were open. I no longer had the question of `if' things were possible. My whole life changed. Reply | Forward

#136

From: "k9caninek9" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:26 pm Subject: Re: Ideograms & Probing k9caninek9 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Lyn seems to recommend that it is better to probe the most recent 'sketch.' So in the beginning, that is the ideogram, but after you have made a sketch, then use that for probing instead of the ideogram. But of course in the end if it works for you then do it. -E --- In pjrv...urboaccess" I do notice that the longer I'm doing a target, the harder it is. > Any tricks of the trade to help stay in the zone? Is it better to > break at the point you notice yourself having trouble and come back > later, or what? Anyone else have that problem? Reply | Forward

#132

From: joan003...k.net Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Re: Ideograms & Probing joanie003 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Glenn Wheaton writes: <> Good questions Glenn and loaded too...TOTALLY IMPORTANT AND LOADED as they should be....yes. In other words as Lyn B. (my teacher among many) puts the AWE of it all into ya...like the fear of God.... I love that..because it's not trivial stuff and I love that the teachers consider it so sacred...it IS...no doubt about it..to me... I think that many who DON'T post on the Internet so much have answered them :-) (I have often found it odd that most people I meet at these conferences in the face to face that are VERY involved in RV and doing the work so dedicatedly and the stories they share are so deep and profound and these are the ones that don't post to these lists...why is that? That is an RV OBSCURITY ISSUE that I am curious about...so PJ can add it to her list, along with the "taboo" topics I think of.) And yet there are some come through the other side...that do. Magnificent! Everyone has unique jobs to sound absolutely pithy...some to be here, some to be doing their own things...some to reach a certain important age and get the call backs and do their duties according to instructions.... Thank you for stating this...this is very important to ask because it affects one's WHOLE LIFE.....once gone beyond the rv veil...you're in it, and that's when the real work starts...no turning back.....for most of us anyway...there's always a loophole out for those that don't want to do it...ALL-WAYS and that is also a healing reminder. Bless You, Joanie Reply | Forward

#134

From: joan003...k.net Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:40 am Subject: Re: Re: Ideograms & Probing joanie003 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 << I do notice that the longer I'm doing a target, the harder it is. Any tricks of the trade to help stay in the zone? Is it better to break at the point you notice yourself having trouble and come back later, or what? Anyone else have that problem? >> Hi Turbo, I ALWAYS stop when I'm having trouble, I don't try to force it...but take the coords again, redo the ideogram and then proceed until I'm burnt...then I break. Put the session down and come back to it later if I decide I want to. on staying "in the zone" - I seem to be in and out of the zone in alternating waves as part of just everyday waking living. One of (I suppose) my better practice sessions to date was something that came about by "accident." I couldn't seem to free up the time like an hour or so to do the session...so I decided to do the session over time during my normal workday. I did the session in small bursts of anywhere from 2 to 10 minute bursts over 2 or 3 day period, just by breaking when I couldn't get anything else, then resuming when a burst of perceptions came to me. I'd take a break from work...have a cigarette, end up spacing out and I'd get about 10 more perceptions or contemplations on the target, come in, and immediately write them down. Then sometimes more would come. Then I'd break again... I suppose this may have actually been a combo of CRV/ERV process (without the monitor of course). In any case, I'm reminding myself now that that's a good way to do sessions - for me anyway. This is primarily the stage 2 work though. I'm trained through Stage 3 in CRV, so that's what I'm working with until I move on. Who did you take CRV training with? In the Spirit, Joanie Reply | Forward

#47

From: Juha Koskelainen Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:54 am Subject: Re: Ideograms...lhox Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Glenn, you wrote: > Both types of ideographic data are considered to be expressive and > non-perishable. This means the ideogram preserves its integrity beyond > observation by the viewer who produced it. ... > A few things are evident in the > preservation of the ideograms. Probing with a pen destroys data after > collection. A probing stylus or finger, are less destructive to the > ideographic integrity. At HRVG probing is done with a pen unless there > is a need to keep the ideogram intact. Why/how does probing destroy data from the ideogram? Are you saying the data really *is* in there, not just in the viewer's mind? - Lucid Reply | Forward

#64

From: "raainfall" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:00 am Subject: Re: Ideograms...ainfall Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha Lucid, You asked... "Why/how does probing destroy data from the ideogram? Are you saying the data really *is* in there, not just in the viewer's mind?" That is a good question. It is not just in the viewer's mind. In my earlier post I stated that ideograms were expressive. They are physical evidence of data whose origins link to the remote target. At HRVG we believe that RV is a communications skill. Methodology allows us to build pathway and to train ourselves to use that pathway. Like most physical evidence if you mask it with 4 or 5 seconds of ink from your pen it will degrade the original recorded data into oblivion. Aloha Glenn Reply | Forward

#82

From: "elittlestar" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:00 pm Subject: Re: Ideograms...ittlestar Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha Glenn; Fancy meeting you here! just joined the fun. If what you say is true, that the ink obliterates , then would you agree that a better approach can be had when one uses the other end of the ink pen to probe with, and therefore the pro'ber with the non ink drip side can now probe longer with possible better results. ? Or in another example , if one uses a type ink pen that doesn't continue to flow out as it is, in constant touch with an absorbent paper. vs. a ball pen ink pen. or pencil??? Therefor assuring to some who need a second or two more to contact the right data stream, now maybe assuring a better RV contact, and data. Improving the RV'ers contact and data, to be more on target then not....! Would you allow such an improved method idea to improve a viewer's data? LHK, pame% Reply | Forward

#109

From: "raainfall" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:14 am Subject: Re: Ideograms...ainfall Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha Pame, In your post you said... P> If what you say is true, that the ink obliterates, then would you agree that a better approach can be had when one uses the other end of the ink pen to probe with, and therefore the pro'ber with the non ink drip side can now probe longer with possible better results. I do not agree. The dwell time for probing an ideogram has nothing to do with the probing instrument. It has everything to do with the focus and intent of the viewer. The dwell time is 1.5 to 2 seconds. The cycle of query, probe, collect, and record is the NLP sequence. Each step in the cycle is the gateway to the next. Over the many sessions the viewer works this cycle brings the primary awareness and the subconscious into a series of communicative agreements. It becomes an expectation. Ideograms should be probed with the stylus/pen that made them. The medium used for transferal is the best medium for recovery. If there is some reason you do not wish to degrade the ideogram one can adopt another probing tool but they would have to retrain themselves to use the tool. While ideogram theory can be complex the ideogram itself is such a simple collection of target residue that the best means to decode it are the simplest. Ideogram style is very transient so you cannot always assume that the effort and kinesthetics in its production are demonstrative of its content. Since it is a repetitive task it is subject to labor memory and viewer learned muscular response. Aloha Glenn ---------------- Moderator's note: I understand her question though. I thought you meant the same thing, based on your 10Jul02 post where you wrote: > A few things are evident in the preservation of the ideograms. > Probing with a pen destroys data after collection. > A probing stylus or finger, are less destructive to the ideographic > integrity. I see though you are separating 'time' for data collection from the nature of the ideogram (as a 'record') itself. -- PJ Reply | Forward

#126

From: "Kyriakos" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 12:46 pm Subject: RE: Re: Ideograms...mind Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Hi Glenn, By this argument it only takes into account that only the viewer who creates the ideogram is able to interpret the gestalts at the site. Not that you addressed this issue here - It was my understanding that any viewer can pick up any other viewers session and touch their ideograms - at a later time - and also receive site impressions. It seems that you are putting a lot of stress on your nervous system to interpret the gestalts very quickly, I am not saying this doesn't work for you, I am just asking if this rule of thumb (1-1/2 - 2 seconds to read the ideogram) is not more flexible. When one goes through the A & B's of the ideogram process you are in a way keeping your conscious mind busy, which would allow your nervous system time to explore the feel of the site. regards, Kyriakos Reply | Forward

#131

From: "raainfall" Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 1:42 am Subject: Re: Ideograms...ainfall Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Invite to Yahoo! 360 Invite to Yahoo! 360 Aloha Kyriakos, In your post you asked... K> I am not saying this doesn't work for you, I am just asking if this rule of thumb (1-1/2 - 2 seconds to read the ideogram) is not more flexible. As with most skills you will find that each person is a bit different in how they work through the sort of mental task that is RV. The foundations of the skill itself usually determine whether the person can achieve a level of focus to create the proper environment in which to collect the needed data. If what the viewer does is regulated by method and cadence then there is a common, repetitive, point of feedback for the viewer. The mind and the body learn to function within the environment because it is one in which they gain experience. As the level of experience grows the viewer will learn how to adapt the method to their unique perspective during the session. While it is easy to wish and hope for magic to happen, it is discipline that generates performance. I think most people want the performance but need encouragement to stick to a level of discipline that makes it possible. As experience and performance increases the viewer can better determine how long they can keep a level of focus at any specific point along the way. Aloha Glenn

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