pjrv : Messages : 1980-1989 of 4038
#1980 From: greenmn900...
Date: Thu Jan 9, ?003 6:19 am
Subject: Re: Different types of OBE greenmn900...
That's an amazing story! You produced PK effects. But it sounds like you
weren't even in a light-trance when it happened - and that part is
Have you tried any other PK experiments? It sounds like you're a lot better
at it than the average person is. It would be interesting to see how you
demonstrate it under some strict controls. It's exciting to me because
demonstrable PK has always seemed like the ultimate form of psi - the hardest
to achieve and the phenomena that seems to violate more laws of physics than
any other psi-related talent.
What's really interesting to me is that, if your friends had just saw you
there, we could always explain it away as simple telepathy - You intruded
upon their awareness when your homesicknesses gave added power to your
thoughts of them. But the fact that so many different people all saw the
same poltergeist-like phenomena, and that you then repeated it with the
door-knocking, means it was clearly a case of PK - with multiple witnesses.
I tend to think of everything from RV and traveling clairvoyance to
full-blown consciously-induced OBEs as being on a continuum. I don't think
they are really diffferent, seperate phenomena, but just different
manifestations of the same general talent, each one probably requiring
different amounts and types of energy and concentration, and each one being
closely related to the rest. But PK has always seemed like "The Holy Grail"
#1989 From: "intuitwolf "
Date: Thu Jan 9, ?003 6:40 pm
Subject: Re: Different types of OBE intuitwolf
> Don wrote
> Have you tried any other PK experiments? It sounds like you're a
> lot better at it than the average person is.
When I was a child (before age 8? ) I remember moving the toys on the
floor from my bed when I couldn't sleep at night. At 1? I really
honest to god (to this day!? ) believe I actually levitated and flew a
distance of 30+ feet. I was playing in my backyard and it was a very
windy day. I was pretending to be a fairy and was imagining 'flying
with the wind'. I would take running jumps into the air and see how
far I could 'fly'. At one point I went so far I passed the garage
which meant it was at least ?5 or 30 feet. I remember being so
thrilled and scared at the same time and that I knew no one could fly
so that I actually looked around to make sure no one had seen me do it
-- like I was doing something not allowed.
I did try several other times. Once (which may or may not qualify as
PK? ) while alone lying in bed after reading the first Seth Materials, I
felt a benevolent presence that I interpreted as Seth (now don't laugh
- I was very impressed by that first book :-? ). Anyway, I said to the
air, "well if you are really here just ring those wind chimes" (I had
a windchime hanging in the room made of very thin pink tortoise
shells? ) - well the darn thing let out a tinkle as loud as if someone
had actually brushed them with their hand. I sat straight up in bed!
(that startle factor again? ) and never again asked for any presence to
prove anything in my physical reality. :-? )
I have bent a really sturdy spoon once -- and only once -- out of
Most recently I nearly cut two of my fingers to the bone in an
unconscious PK event. I was angry at some folks who had been
attempting to intimidate me and while I was washing dishes I was
thinking about it. I had a large thick glass pot in my hands and while
I was rinsing it out (without it touching anything except my hands? )
the damned thing literally exploded. It wasn't a matter of hot pan
hitting cold water or cold pan hitting hot water either. The water I
was using was lukewarm as I'd already used up most of the hot water,
and the pan was at room temp. The glass fell into the sink, bounced
up, and cut two of my fingers very deeply. I bled so much my husband
wanted to take me to the hospital. But I managed to get calm enough to
stop the bleeding and take care of it. (Stopping bleeding using glove
anesthesia is a pk of sorts? ). So, I'd say that although I'm interested
in PK I haven't really explored it significantly outside of healing
work -- and rarely in that realm.
> It would be interesting to see how you
> demonstrate it under some strict controls.
I'd probably exhibit a total failure rate :-? ). My past experiences
have not been inducive to a desire for exhibition - whatever I've done
has either been totally unconscious or has scared other people - or
me! :-? ) I've never been good at the pk parties - for some reason those
have always struck me as being done wrong -- like exactly backward.
Yelling at a spoon? I'd rather be nice to molecules and ask them to
respond. A spoon is part of the universe and it seems like a 'wrong
use of will' to me to be 'demanding' in such a stringent manner that
the universe bend to your will. See what I mean? That attitude if
carried over into other life activities is more visible as a wrong
> It's exciting to me because demonstrable PK has always seemed like
> the ultimate form of psi - the hardest to achieve and the phenomena
> that seems to violate more laws of physics than
> any other psi-related talent.
Once I have my life back (I've got three major projects going on right
now - but after February I'll be a free again? ) it would be interesting
to see if I could develop it in a way that could be gently
demonstrable. Emotion does seem to be an activating factor in past
events. How to do it minus the emotional factor may be the major
> I tend to think of everything from RV and traveling clairvoyance to
> full-blown consciously-induced OBEs as being on a continuum.
I agree, but it helps to make delineations on that continuum in order
to not talk past one another about our experiences.
pjrv : Messages : 1976-?004 of 4038
#1976 From: "intuitwolf "
Date: Thu Jan 9, ?003 1:44 am
Subject: Different types of OBE intuitwolf
> Viv wrote:
> The real issue here is remembering it. That's what it is
> reallly about. If one is to tired, preoccupied, to intense
> about doing an OBE, or whatever, this is what will
> interfer with the conscious memory of OBE's.
> PJ wrote:
> . . . But there is also deliberately or fully conscious OBEs, which
> I've done much of my life, and they are often very cool experiences
> and often feel much more physical than those realized during sleep
I agree with you about the primary idea that we all leave our bodies
during sleep. And that intense focuse on making it happen is
counter-productive. But I also note the extreme difference in
awakening to an OBE or semi-conscious floating into one vs. the more
physical consciously-induced OBE.
When I first began to explore the world of psi it was due to some very
unusal experiences. I was in St. Louis with the doctor and his family
I spoke of before. I was homesick and wanted to go home. One Saturday
night as I lay in bed unable to sleep I imagined myself at the creek
where my friends and I always got together on Saturday night. It was
all very real, I could hear their voices and laughter, I could see
some of them. At that time I chalked it up to imagination.
About an hour later I received a phone call from several of those
friends who were all standing in a public phone booth calling St.
Louis in the middle of the night. They told me they had seen me at the
Well, I thought they were all crazy - or had a tad too much wine. I
had never heard of OBEs and didn't have a clue about psi.
When I returned home the next month I received a call from the group
asking me to come over to one of their homes. When I arrived they were
all there acting very weird and the stories they told me were even
more unbelievable. It was like a group intervention and they were
their to confront me as a group. They said they had continued to 'see'
me and that things were flying off the walls and shelves, doors were
opening, etc. All the typical poletergists phenonmena. I wasn't having
any of it. I told them they must have taken on some kind of group
hysteria or someone in the group was having great fun leading them on.
They all to a person insisted that they knew I was creating the
I went home really peeved and perplexed by all of this. I talked to my
mother about it and then it occured to me that I could prove it one
way or the other by a little experiment. I told my mother (who was in
effect to be my witness? ) that I would send myself in my mind to S's
house and knock on the door. My mother was not too enthused about the
experiment, but also didn't think anything would come of it, and if it
would set my mind at ease she was willing to participate.
I imagined the path to S's house -- about halfway there it seemed to
become more clear, more real. When I reached the house everything had
a clarity of detail that was not the norm for my imaginative images.
Bricks had that crinkled look. The doorknob was brighter, etc. I
knocked on the door. In less than two minutes our phone rang and S was
on the other end of the line screaming at my mother to tell me to
stop! That is the day I knew I had to figure out what was happening,
and I've been working on it ever since.
So, yes, I would say a consciously induced OBE is much more vital and
absolutely you can influence physical reality while in one. Another
note, I was not lying down when I did it. I was sitting in a chair.
When the phone rang I remember feeling jolted somewhat but nothing as
extreme as when I'm in one of those body asleep/mind awake OBEs. I
don't think you can call it an astral projection because it's active
on the physical plane.
#1987 From: "Bo Kindstrand <031-7115905...>" <031-7115905...>
Date: Thu Jan 9, ?003 ?:45 pm
Subject: Re: Different types of OBE bokindstrand
Have you read Karl Jansen's book Ketamine Dremasand
In it he discusses the use of the drug Ketamine to OBEs by
using tools as Ketamine in the waking world, to enter different
levels of consciousness. You learn how to control them and can
transfer that control over to the dream realm and get some OBEs
while dreaming with ease.
"Jansen has proposed a model based on similarities in
ketamine experiences and NDEs. His model theorizes a
neuroprotective benefit from the experiences in that the end
neurotransmitter L-glutamate may be both neuroprotective and
an endopsychosin. This model gives an evolutionary reason for
the development of the experiences as they may protect the brain
against hypoxia as well as giving an expanded sense of
awareness and detachment helpful in life threatening
situations..(Jansen K 1996? ) Ketamine also acts in the
mesiotemporal lobes and associated limbic lobe
structures.(Morse 1989? )"
Moderator's note: Vitamin K! LOL. Dr. John Lilly's autobiography (he's the guy
who worked with actual early mind control, and dolphin language? ) is a really
good read. He got addicted to K and it really messed up his life. He goes on
about the 'stainless steel intelligences' and so on -- I always thought Lilly
and Robert Monroe could have had a very good, if weird, rap session! PJ
#1993 From: "Bo Kindstrand <031-7115905...>" <031-7115905...>
Date: Fri Jan 10, ?003 5:08 am
Subject: Re: Different types of OBE bokindstrand
Here is another technique you can work with to initate a OBE.
I know from my own experience that it works well:
Dr Cheyne tries the 'Roll Out' Technique
Dr Al Cheyne, a respected scientist who has done a lot of
research into ASP, had not had an ASP episode for about ?0
years. Then, during the early morning houurs of May 10, ?00?,
after tossing and turning for a couple hours, he found that he
was unable to turn his head and he realized that his body was
I then remembered my determination to experiment with the OBE
should I ever have another SP experience. Here was an
opportunity try to get out of my body. I tried to do this by simply
rolling over as nonchalantly as the circumstances permitted and
had immediate success - well almost. I could feel myself
separating from the upper half of my body by turning to the right,
but felt stuck in my lower torso and legs. I then decided
spontaneously to try to spin out of my body and I immediately
began to spin around the longitudinal axis of my body and slid
out, floating down the bed, and ending up hovering across the
foot of the bed - actually just past the foot of the bed - hovering, in
a horizontal position, a couple of feet above the bedroom floor.
Now that I was "out," I decided to experiment further. I first tried to
levitate my "astral" body - which seemed to be complete. I was
unable, however, to rise above about three feet from the floor. I
then decided to let myself fall - or rather, sink - into the floor. In
this I was successful and I passed through the floor effortlessly,
noting the floor joists as I passed, through the next level and the
next floor. I then realized that I would next sink into the ground
and decided that would be unpleasant and so stopped myself
from sinking and found myself once again at the foot of my bed. I
next decided to try floating horizontally toward the window. This
worked immediately and I awaited, with some anticipation, my
passage through the window. I passed through the window quite
effortlessly, though I did feel myself brushing aside a few of the
slats of the Venetian blinds that really do hang in my bedroom
window. Then things began to get truly interesting!
Cheyne began to explore the neighborhood outside his bedroom
window. The scene changed and he found himself on an ocean
liner. By the time the experience ends it had become a lucid
dream, but he doesn't explain how that transition took place.
For the benefit of others who might want to try this technique, Dr
Cheyne now tried to describe how he had done it
It is difficult to describe because one has no idea how it is done
... This is also how lucid dreamers do things in their dreams:
They simply decide to do them. ... Automatic processes take over
... or sometimes ... not. If they do not there is nothing else to do
except to plan on doing something else and hope that the
automatic processes for that are ready to hand. The point is that
there is no way that one can voluntarily affect the automatic
processes except by planning and deciding.
Recall that my fist attempt to roll out of my body was not
completely successful. I got stuck halfway out. Had I continued to
struggle to get out of my lower body I think I would have been
unsuccessful and would have quickly found myself entirely
paralyzed within seconds. Rather than trying harder to have the
experience of getting out of my body I tried something different. I
decided to spin. I do not know how I managed to spin any more
than I really know how to sit up or roll over. I just decided to do it
and some automatic processes just took over. There was no
guarantee that they would do so. I might have got stuck again,
though I did not. If I had, I suppose I would have tried to sink out
of my body or float out. I am confident something would have
worked eventually, as long as I did not start to struggle to force
something happen that just was not ready to happen.
Trying to act in as natural and unforced a manner as possible is
part of the solution but I do not think that it can be the whole
answer. The type of movement seems important. Turning,
spinning, rotating seem to work better than simple linear
movements like sitting up.
This was a greatly condensed version Dr Cheyne's report in the
#1994 From: "Bo Kindstrand <031-7115905...>" <031-7115905...>
Date: Fri Jan 10, ?003 1?:0? pm
Subject: Re: Different types of OBE bokindstrand
> Shelia wrote:
> But I also note the extreme difference in
> awakening to an OBE or semi-conscious
> floating into one vs. the more
> physical consciously-induced OBE.
Here is a scientific explanation on what is really happening when
you are having an OBE and dream lucid:
"A mysterious and highly controversial phenomenon sometimes
occurs in which people experience the compelling sensation
that they have somehow "left their bodies." The "out-of-body
experience" or "OBE", as this fascinating phenomenon is usually
termed, takes a variety of forms. In the most typical, you are lying
in bed, apparently awake, when suddenly you experience a
range of primarily somatic sensations, often including vibrations,
heaviness, and paralysis. Then you experience the vivid
sensation of separating from your "physical body" in what feels
like a second body, often floating above the bed.
It is important to note the distinction between the phenomenal
reality of the OBE and the various interpretations of the
experience. What is really happening when you feel yourself
"leaving your body"? According to one school of thought, what is
actually happening is just what it feels like: you are moving in a
second body out of and away from your physical body--in
physical space. But this "explanation" doesn't hold up very well
under examination. After all, the body we ordinarily feel ourselves
to be (or if you like, to inhabit? ) is a phenomenal or mental body
rather than a physical body. The space we see around us is not
physical space as "common sense" tells us, but as modern
psychology makes clear, a phenomenal or mental space. In
general, our consciousness is a mental model of the world.
OBE enthusiasts promote lucid dreaming as a "stepping stone"
to the OBE. Conversely, many lucid dreamers have had the
experience of feeling themselves "leave the body" at the onset of
a lucid dream. From a laboratory study,
http://www.lucidity.com/NL3?.OBEandLD.html we have
that OBEs can occur in the same
physiological state as lucid dreams. Wake-initiated lucid dreams
(WILDs? ) were three times more likely to be labeled "OBEs" than
dream initiated lucid dreams. If you believe yourself to have been
awake, then you are more likely to take the experience at face
value and believe yourself to have literally left your physical body
in some sort of mental or "astral" body floating around in the
"real" physical world. If, on the other hand, you think of the
experience as a dream, then you are likely to identify the OBE
body as a dream body image and the environment of the
experience as a dream world. The validity of the latter
interpretation is supported by observations and research
http://www.lucidity.com/NL3?.OBEandLD.html on these
Moderator's note: Sounds like a scientific theory, much more than a 'known'
about 'what is really happening'. As most of us probably suspect, such things
are on a spectrum scale and it's often difficult to clearly categorize things. I
liked the note about "our consciousness is a mental model of the world." I
might say 'contains and perceives through one' instead, but I think that point
is important. If all time is one, then all space is one, and technically we
have no more need to 'go' anywhere than we do to 'travel' in time. Then again,
we technically might not 'need' to fall in love, either. Life in this realm
seems geared for experience, and OBEs sure are experiential! -- PJ
#?004 From: "Elizabeth Hambrook"
Date: Sat Jan 11, ?003 6:?8 am
Subject: Re: Different types of OBE ozblueriver
> From: Bo Kindstrand
> Trying to act in as natural and unforced a
> manner as possible is part of the solution
> but I do not think that it can be the whole
> answer. The type of movement seems important.
> Turning, spinning, rotating seem to work better
> than simple linear movements like sitting up.
The easiest way I've found to 'get out' of body is to mentally do a back flip.
I do this trick when I'm having trouble conjuring up my normal nightly flying.
This would fit right in with the "Turning, spinning, rotating" that is spoken of
I lay in bed and get into a sleepy state then mentally do a back flip. I've
noticed that I have to do it with real feeling as if I really am flipping right
over in a circle. One I've come back full circle to my 'original position' I'm
usually in space amongst the stars for some unknown reason.
There seems to be a question of whether or not we really do leave our bodies
when having an OBE. Some of us are convinced that we leave our bodies and others
feel that it is all a mental exercise. I think we are in both states at the
same time and weather we feel we are still in our bodies or floating around
outside just depends on where the main focus of our consciousness is.
Even if we think OBE's are really taking place in our heads, in reality we
really do leave our bodies and are conscious of what that body is doing, yet
conscious of our physical body at the same time. The trouble is that, (usually? ),
we seem to remember only what one body is doing at a time.
I say 'usually', but I know we can be aware of both bodies at the same because
while I'm off flying every night before I go to sleep I am still totally aware
of my physical body laying in bed. I've even driven a car while being aware of
another body of mine doing something else and feeling as if I'm fully functional
in both. And I've had proof that the 'other' body really was out there in the
physical as well as my physical body.
So just to sum up my rambling, I think OBE's are mental, physical and astral
(and an infinite number of other ways? ), all at the same time and it just depends
on where our consciousness is focused as to what we remember.
I think one day when our consciousness expands a little more, we will be able
to experience that we are not only in and out of body at the same time but also
be conscious of being everywhere and everything all at one time.
It's mind boggling and Oh so cool don't you think!